Discussion:
No, gun silencers wouldn't have worsened the Las Vegas shooting
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BurfordTJustice
2017-10-05 07:44:07 UTC
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Standby for trader to tell all this is all wrong.



No, gun silencers wouldn't have worsened the Las Vegas shooting

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/oct/04/hillary-clinton/no-gun-silencers-wouldnt-have-worsened-las-vegas-s/
m***@yahoo.com
2017-10-05 14:11:53 UTC
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Post by BurfordTJustice
No, gun silencers wouldn't have worsened the Las Vegas shooting
Sound follows the inverse square law.
A 6 dB reduction is the same as doubling the distance.
A 24 dB reduction is equivalent to increasing the distance by 2x2x2x2= 16x
A 25 dB suppressor makes a weapons sound seem to be 16x further away.


how loud was the music at the concert?

how loud were the shots at the distance where the concert was? (not at the shooter)

A 25 dB reduction is a very large reduction, the same as being 16x further away.

A 25 dB drop could very well have made the shots inaudible ____under the music____.


Feel free to check those facts.
m
g***@aol.com
2017-10-05 15:17:25 UTC
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Post by BurfordTJustice
No, gun silencers wouldn't have worsened the Las Vegas shooting
Sound follows the inverse square law.
A 6 dB reduction is the same as doubling the distance.
A 24 dB reduction is equivalent to increasing the distance by 2x2x2x2= 16x
A 25 dB suppressor makes a weapons sound seem to be 16x further away.
how loud was the music at the concert?
how loud were the shots at the distance where the concert was? (not at the shooter)
A 25 dB reduction is a very large reduction, the same as being 16x further away.
A 25 dB drop could very well have made the shots inaudible ____under the music____.
Feel free to check those facts.
m
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
trader_4
2017-10-05 17:48:11 UTC
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Post by BurfordTJustice
No, gun silencers wouldn't have worsened the Las Vegas shooting
Sound follows the inverse square law.
A 6 dB reduction is the same as doubling the distance.
A 24 dB reduction is equivalent to increasing the distance by 2x2x2x2= 16x
A 25 dB suppressor makes a weapons sound seem to be 16x further away.
how loud was the music at the concert?
how loud were the shots at the distance where the concert was? (not at the shooter)
A 25 dB reduction is a very large reduction, the same as being 16x further away.
A 25 dB drop could very well have made the shots inaudible ____under the music____.
Feel free to check those facts.
m
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The videos and interviews I saw, people heard the shots, that was the
initial heads up, what's going on, indication. Initially most people
weren't sure what it was, many said they thought it was firecrackers.
But there is no disputing that the sound was the first indication
that something unusual was going on.
g***@aol.com
2017-10-05 19:22:39 UTC
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 10:48:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
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Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by BurfordTJustice
No, gun silencers wouldn't have worsened the Las Vegas shooting
Sound follows the inverse square law.
A 6 dB reduction is the same as doubling the distance.
A 24 dB reduction is equivalent to increasing the distance by 2x2x2x2= 16x
A 25 dB suppressor makes a weapons sound seem to be 16x further away.
how loud was the music at the concert?
how loud were the shots at the distance where the concert was? (not at the shooter)
A 25 dB reduction is a very large reduction, the same as being 16x further away.
A 25 dB drop could very well have made the shots inaudible ____under the music____.
Feel free to check those facts.
m
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The videos and interviews I saw, people heard the shots, that was the
initial heads up, what's going on, indication. Initially most people
weren't sure what it was, many said they thought it was firecrackers.
But there is no disputing that the sound was the first indication
that something unusual was going on.
"something going on" is not really a warning and nobody was ducking or
running until they saw people going down.
This is a red herring from the gun dumb left.
Unquestionably Confused
2017-10-05 20:42:24 UTC
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 10:48:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
Post by g***@aol.com
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The videos and interviews I saw, people heard the shots, that was the
initial heads up, what's going on, indication. Initially most people
weren't sure what it was, many said they thought it was firecrackers.
But there is no disputing that the sound was the first indication
that something unusual was going on.
"something going on" is not really a warning and nobody was ducking or
running until they saw people going down.
This is a red herring from the gun dumb left.
Yep.

Consider also that Paddock allegedly was using weapons equipped with
"Bumper Stocks" to achieve near full automatic fire. BATFE considered
bumper stocks a novelty since they only increase rate of fire while
simultaneously decreasing accuracy. So Paddock was in "pray and spray"
mode and merely trying to contain his fire in a specific area rather
than singling out individual targets.

Given that the area in which the victims were contained was nothing more
than a glorified "corral" he was shooting fish in a barrel, I would
argue the the only thing which would affect the number of casualties in
this incident was the rate of fire. Whether they could hear the shots
or no, whether they ran or stood still, their chances of being shot were
more or less random. Crowding them further into one specific area - say
an exit pathway - might have increased Paddock's effectiveness. Or not!

Suppressors or not, I don't believe it would have made any difference.
Take away the bumper stocks and you have a whole different argument. .
Maybe!
trader_4
2017-10-05 23:29:58 UTC
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 10:48:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
Post by g***@aol.com
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The videos and interviews I saw, people heard the shots, that was the
initial heads up, what's going on, indication. Initially most people
weren't sure what it was, many said they thought it was firecrackers.
But there is no disputing that the sound was the first indication
that something unusual was going on.
"something going on" is not really a warning and nobody was ducking or
running until they saw people going down.
This is a red herring from the gun dumb left.
Yep.
It's sad that it comes down to name calling, that anyone that thinks
the sound of a gun shot serves as a warning, a heads-up, is now
the "dumb left".

If it's so dumb, why is that exactly the principle articulated by those
hunters in the Gun Digest article I cited? That with a silencer, you
can kill a whole herd of elk, instead of one?
Post by Unquestionably Confused
Consider also that Paddock allegedly was using weapons equipped with
"Bumper Stocks" to achieve near full automatic fire. BATFE considered
bumper stocks a novelty since they only increase rate of fire while
simultaneously decreasing accuracy. So Paddock was in "pray and spray"
mode and merely trying to contain his fire in a specific area rather
than singling out individual targets.
Which of course is irrelevant to the silencer issue. And even the NRA
no longer considers
them novelties. Funny, I didn't see the NRA warning about them before
the tragedy, being the good citizens they claim to be.
g***@aol.com
2017-10-06 00:30:45 UTC
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 16:29:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
It's sad that it comes down to name calling, that anyone that thinks
the sound of a gun shot serves as a warning, a heads-up,
From 300 yards away, you will not even hear the shot that kills you.
The fact remains that the sound of the gunfire did not really warn
these people. People thought it must just be fireworks somewhere. It
was the other people around them getting shot that gave them the
"heads up" ... or heads down in this case
At that point the sound of the gun may have worsened the panic.
rbowman
2017-10-06 04:24:42 UTC
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Post by Unquestionably Confused
Suppressors or not, I don't believe it would have made any difference.
Take away the bumper stocks and you have a whole different argument. .
Maybe!
Maybe...



It's not an AR-15 and very few people are as good as Jerry Miculek but a
bump fire stock isn't necessary. It could be argued a good shooter with
a dialed in scope could do much more damage with aimed fire. Even give a
leisurely 2 seconds to acquire a target and fire a mad minute could rack
up 30 fatalities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute

Keep in mind that the Brits were using bolt action rifles, not modern
semi-automatics.
trader_4
2017-10-05 23:24:55 UTC
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2017 10:48:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
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Post by BurfordTJustice
No, gun silencers wouldn't have worsened the Las Vegas shooting
Sound follows the inverse square law.
A 6 dB reduction is the same as doubling the distance.
A 24 dB reduction is equivalent to increasing the distance by 2x2x2x2= 16x
A 25 dB suppressor makes a weapons sound seem to be 16x further away.
how loud was the music at the concert?
how loud were the shots at the distance where the concert was? (not at the shooter)
A 25 dB reduction is a very large reduction, the same as being 16x further away.
A 25 dB drop could very well have made the shots inaudible ____under the music____.
Feel free to check those facts.
m
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The videos and interviews I saw, people heard the shots, that was the
initial heads up, what's going on, indication. Initially most people
weren't sure what it was, many said they thought it was firecrackers.
But there is no disputing that the sound was the first indication
that something unusual was going on.
"something going on" is not really a warning and nobody was ducking or
running until they saw people going down.
This is a red herring from the gun dumb left.
Now you're just being ridiculous. Watch those videos. As the shots
are first fired, people are reacting to the noise, on alert, trying
to figure out what's going on. That is very obvious from looking
at some of the videos, people are questioning what's going on.
It's part of the process of figuring out whether to duck or run.
When you hear a gun fired, you take notice.
If people started dropping, no sound, it could take much longer.
Funny, that's exactly the principle articulated by those hunters
in the article I cited from Gun Digest. No silencer, the elk
immediately run, you get one. With a silencer you can kill many more.
Oren
2017-10-05 19:39:25 UTC
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Post by g***@aol.com
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
Folks that visit here think of fireworks, being "Vegas" and all. A
condition people fall into.

Practice situational awareness, get the face out of the phone and pay
attention of what is happening around you. Just sayin'.
Ed Pawlowski
2017-10-05 23:05:19 UTC
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Post by Oren
Post by g***@aol.com
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
Folks that visit here think of fireworks, being "Vegas" and all. A
condition people fall into.
Practice situational awareness, get the face out of the phone and pay
attention of what is happening around you. Just sayin'.
What was happening around them was a music concert, probably fairly
loud. Awareness helps, but not if you are #1 target in this situation..
rbowman
2017-10-06 04:29:13 UTC
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Post by Oren
Post by g***@aol.com
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
Folks that visit here think of fireworks, being "Vegas" and all. A
condition people fall into.
Practice situational awareness, get the face out of the phone and pay
attention of what is happening around you. Just sayin'.
During the Rodney King riots I happened to be at the LA terminal which
was just off Ball Rd and State College. Disneyland is about a mile away.
I was sitting in my truck reading when the Disneyland nightly fireworks
display started. No, I did not think it was fireworks, and yes, I was
out of that truck, locked and loaded, damn fast. But I'm a little on the
paranoid side.
Bob F
2017-10-06 22:05:32 UTC
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Post by BurfordTJustice
No, gun silencers wouldn't have worsened the Las Vegas shooting
Sound follows the inverse square law.
A 6 dB reduction is the same as doubling the distance.
A 24 dB reduction is equivalent to increasing the distance by 2x2x2x2= 16x
A 25 dB suppressor makes a weapons sound seem to be 16x further away.
how loud was the music at the concert?
how loud were the shots at the distance where the concert was? (not at the shooter)
A 25 dB reduction is a very large reduction, the same as being 16x further away.
A 25 dB drop could very well have made the shots inaudible ____under the music____.
Feel free to check those facts.
m
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.
g***@aol.com
2017-10-07 04:23:54 UTC
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Post by Bob F
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The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.
There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheering
then tho.
Bob F
2017-10-07 23:47:10 UTC
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The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.
There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheering
then tho.
The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of the
videos I saw.
g***@aol.com
2017-10-07 23:58:54 UTC
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The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.
There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheering
then tho.
The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of the
videos I saw.
Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.
trader_4
2017-10-08 00:46:50 UTC
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The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.
There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheering
then tho.
The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of the
videos I saw.
Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.
Why would they be running around in panic, if no one heard any shots?



http://people.com/crime/mark-gray-witness-las-vegas-shooting/



“I was there with friends. We’ve gone every year for the past four years,” says Gray, who was in an outdoor area outside a ground level suite on the left side of the stage when singer Jason Aldean took the stage at around 9:45 pm on Sunday.

“It was just as normal as can be. He was on his fourth song and really just kind of starting, and I was talking two my friends when I started to hear ‘pop, pop, pop.’ It sounded like a firecracker, and one of the girls I was with said, ‘That just hit me. My leg stings.’ And then the girl next to her said, ‘It hit me too.’ ”

Gray now thinks the women were hit by tiny bits of shrapnel — “Whatever it was, it wasn’t strong enough to break the denim of their jeans.” But by then, he saw that another woman, in the suite next door, was being dragged onto a couch.

“I couldn’t see if she was bleeding, but she was pretty hysterical. Right at that moment we heard ‘pop pop pop’ again. We realized they were gun shots.”



Monique Dumas, at the concert with her sister

Canadian Monique Dumas said she was standing six rows back from the main stage when she heard gunfire for "four or five minutes".

"We were watching Jason Aldean … when my sister and I heard what sounded like a bottle breaking or dropping to the ground," she said.

"You kind of just looked around and then seconds later you hear like a 'pop, pop, pop'.

"Your first reaction, you think it's like fireworks or firecrackers.

"It happens again … so everyone crouched and got down."



http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-03/las-vegas-shooting-described-by-witnesses-on-the-ground/9008890


Christine, at the concert with her husband and friends

Christine said after the first round of shots, Aldean ran off the stage.
Then people began "screaming, and falling and running", she said.


Clint, valet at the Mandalay Bay

Clint was working inside the hotel where Paddock was holed up on the 32nd floor.
Emergency vehicles with lights on crowd a road intersection near the Mandalay Bay hotel. Photo: The Mandalay Bay hotel is on the Las Vegas Strip. (Reuters: Las Vegas Sun/Steve Marcus)

"[The gunfire] sounded like a jackhammer," he said.

"We just heard a burst of guns, we didn't know what it was. And then we started seeing more glass coming down."
g***@aol.com
2017-10-08 02:52:43 UTC
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On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 17:46:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
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Post by Bob F
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Post by g***@aol.com
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.
There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheering
then tho.
The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of the
videos I saw.
Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.
Why would they be running around in panic, if no one heard any shots?
http://people.com/crime/mark-gray-witness-las-vegas-shooting/
“I was there with friends. We’ve gone every year for the past four years,” says Gray, who was in an outdoor area outside a ground level suite on the left side of the stage when singer Jason Aldean took the stage at around 9:45 pm on Sunday.
“It was just as normal as can be. He was on his fourth song and really just kind of starting, and I was talking two my friends when I started to hear ‘pop, pop, pop.’ It sounded like a firecracker, and one of the girls I was with said, ‘That just hit me. My leg stings.’ And then the girl next to her said, ‘It hit me too.’ ”
Gray now thinks the women were hit by tiny bits of shrapnel — “Whatever it was, it wasn’t strong enough to break the denim of their jeans.” But by then, he saw that another woman, in the suite next door, was being dragged onto a couch.
“I couldn’t see if she was bleeding, but she was pretty hysterical. Right at that moment we heard ‘pop pop pop’ again. We realized they were gun shots.”
They did not know it was a gun until they saw people getting hit. Your
link just confirmed what I said originally. It was not the sound of
gunfire fire that got them running, it was the blood.
trader_4
2017-10-09 19:08:04 UTC
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On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 17:46:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
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Post by Bob F
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Post by Bob F
Post by g***@aol.com
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.
There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheering
then tho.
The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of the
videos I saw.
Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.
Why would they be running around in panic, if no one heard any shots?
http://people.com/crime/mark-gray-witness-las-vegas-shooting/
“I was there with friends. We’ve gone every year for the past four years,” says Gray, who was in an outdoor area outside a ground level suite on the left side of the stage when singer Jason Aldean took the stage at around 9:45 pm on Sunday.
“It was just as normal as can be. He was on his fourth song and really just kind of starting, and I was talking two my friends when I started to hear ‘pop, pop, pop.’ It sounded like a firecracker, and one of the girls I was with said, ‘That just hit me. My leg stings.’ And then the girl next to her said, ‘It hit me too.’ ”
Gray now thinks the women were hit by tiny bits of shrapnel — “Whatever it was, it wasn’t strong enough to break the denim of their jeans.” But by then, he saw that another woman, in the suite next door, was being dragged onto a couch.
“I couldn’t see if she was bleeding, but she was pretty hysterical. Right at that moment we heard ‘pop pop pop’ again. We realized they were gun shots.”
They did not know it was a gun until they saw people getting hit. Your
link just confirmed what I said originally. It was not the sound of
gunfire fire that got them running, it was the blood.
Nowhere does it say anything close to what you're claiming. What I posted
shows even though the band was performing, playing loud music, people heard
the shots and first became aware that something was possibly wrong
because of the sound of the shots. They clearly heard them regardless
of the fact that the band was playing, they heard the shots over the
music. So the argument that people could not hear the shots because
of the band is totally bogus. It was the sound that first
alerted them. Would they have heard the shots, reacted if a silencer
was used? I tend to doubt it, the Gun Digest article showed that
when hunting, elk run with no silencer, don't run with one. Funny,
I thought that was one of the real reasons hunters wanted to use them,
But now, no, it's all about "hearing protection". They could run some simple
tests to find out how audible the shots would have been with a silencer.
And nowhere in the above does it say that it was blood
that got them running. In fact, one person says he could not see
if a person was bleeding. Amazing how you can read what's not there.

It probably doesn't matter at this point, that bill is very likely
dead now.
g***@aol.com
2017-10-09 20:09:33 UTC
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On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 12:08:04 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
That just hit me. My leg stings.’ And then the girl next to her said, ‘It hit me too.’ ”
Sounds pretty conclusive to me. It was the "hits", not the sound that
told them they were in trouble. They thought they were hearing
fireworks.
Of course these were just fragments of bullets. What did the people
who saw others falling in a pool of blood say.
Oren
2017-10-09 20:29:32 UTC
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What did the people who saw others falling in a pool of blood say.
One kid used his shirt to cover the eyes of a dead person.
BurfordTJustice
2017-10-09 20:27:48 UTC
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typical you defending the mass killer.

Pathetic.
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On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 17:46:50 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
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Post by Bob F
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Post by Bob F
Post by g***@aol.com
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.
There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheering
then tho.
The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of the
videos I saw.
Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.
Why would they be running around in panic, if no one heard any shots?
http://people.com/crime/mark-gray-witness-las-vegas-shooting/
"I was there with friends. We've gone every year for the past four
years," says Gray, who was in an outdoor area outside a ground level
suite on the left side of the stage when singer Jason Aldean took the
stage at around 9:45 pm on Sunday.
"It was just as normal as can be. He was on his fourth song and really
just kind of starting, and I was talking two my friends when I started to
hear 'pop, pop, pop.' It sounded like a firecracker, and one of the girls
I was with said, 'That just hit me. My leg stings.' And then the girl
next to her said, 'It hit me too.' "
Gray now thinks the women were hit by tiny bits of shrapnel - "Whatever
it was, it wasn't strong enough to break the denim of their jeans." But
by then, he saw that another woman, in the suite next door, was being
dragged onto a couch.
"I couldn't see if she was bleeding, but she was pretty hysterical. Right
at that moment we heard 'pop pop pop' again. We realized they were gun
shots."
They did not know it was a gun until they saw people getting hit. Your
link just confirmed what I said originally. It was not the sound of
gunfire fire that got them running, it was the blood.
Nowhere does it say anything close to what you're claiming. What I posted
shows even though the band was performing, playing loud music, people heard
the shots and first became aware that something was possibly wrong
because of the sound of the shots. They clearly heard them regardless
of the fact that the band was playing, they heard the shots over the
music. So the argument that people could not hear the shots because
of the band is totally bogus. It was the sound that first
alerted them. Would they have heard the shots, reacted if a silencer
was used? I tend to doubt it, the Gun Digest article showed that
when hunting, elk run with no silencer, don't run with one. Funny,
I thought that was one of the real reasons hunters wanted to use them,
But now, no, it's all about "hearing protection". They could run some
simple
tests to find out how audible the shots would have been with a silencer.
And nowhere in the above does it say that it was blood
that got them running. In fact, one person says he could not see
if a person was bleeding. Amazing how you can read what's not there.

It probably doesn't matter at this point, that bill is very likely
dead now.
Tekkie®
2017-10-09 18:44:52 UTC
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The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.
There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheering
then tho.
The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of the
videos I saw.
Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
--
Tekkie
Oren
2017-10-09 19:56:10 UTC
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Post by Tekkie®
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
+1

Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45
seconds)

Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.

Watch the video link:

<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>
rbowman
2017-10-10 03:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oren
Post by Tekkie®
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
+1
Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45
seconds)
Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.
<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>
Unfortunately the system doesn't work as well as the company's
promotional literature claims. No surprise there.
gregz
2017-10-12 08:06:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oren
Post by Tekkie®
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
+1
Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45
seconds)
Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.
<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>
After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter. There were two other fellows reporting
nearby, as well as another maintenance guy. Lots of stuff.

Greg
trader_4
2017-10-12 14:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by gregz
Post by Oren
Post by Tekkie®
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
+1
Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45
seconds)
Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.
<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>
After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.
To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.

What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.

Also troubling,

What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?

It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.

The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?

The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?


There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.

The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.
g***@aol.com
2017-10-12 14:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
Post by gregz
Post by Oren
Post by Tekkie®
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
+1
Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45
seconds)
Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.
<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>
After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.
To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.
What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.
Also troubling,
What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?
It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.
The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?
The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?
There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.
The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.
It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming. The other
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.
I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)
trader_4
2017-10-12 15:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@aol.com
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
Post by gregz
Post by Oren
Post by Tekkie®
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
+1
Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45
seconds)
Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.
<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>
After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.
To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.
What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.
Also troubling,
What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?
It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.
The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?
The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?
There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.
The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.
It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.
And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to report
the shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,
from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,
but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fire
on the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,
came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidence
fully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You're
claiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, it
may have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited number
of calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantly
less noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.




The other
Post by g***@aol.com
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.
There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the
31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, we
don't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police have
said that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,
they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel did
with that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's sounding
like maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,
that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reporters
to make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.
Post by g***@aol.com
I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)
Uncle Monster
2017-10-12 16:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by trader_4
Post by g***@aol.com
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
Post by gregz
Post by Oren
Post by Tekkie®
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
+1
Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45
seconds)
Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.
<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>
After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.
To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.
What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.
Also troubling,
What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?
It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.
The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?
The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?
There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.
The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.
It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.
And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to report
the shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,
from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,
but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fire
on the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,
came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidence
fully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You're
claiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, it
may have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited number
of calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantly
less noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.
The other
Post by g***@aol.com
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.
There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the
31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, we
don't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police have
said that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,
they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel did
with that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's sounding
like maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,
that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reporters
to make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.
Post by g***@aol.com
I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)
OMG! Now you have developed LVDS, Las Vegas Derangement Syndrome. Get some help before you hurt yourself or others. Stay away from guns. ヽ(ヅ)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Concerned Monster
ZZyXX
2017-10-12 19:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Uncle Monster
Post by trader_4
Post by g***@aol.com
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
Post by gregz
Post by Oren
Post by Tekkie®
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
+1
Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45
seconds)
Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.
<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>
After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.
To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.
What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.
Also troubling,
What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?
It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.
The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?
The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?
There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.
The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.
It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.
And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to report
the shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,
from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,
but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fire
on the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,
came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidence
fully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You're
claiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, it
may have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited number
of calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantly
less noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.
The other
Post by g***@aol.com
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.
There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the
31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, we
don't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police have
said that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,
they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel did
with that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's sounding
like maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,
that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reporters
to make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.
Post by g***@aol.com
I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)
OMG! Now you have developed LVDS, Las Vegas Derangement Syndrome. Get some help before you hurt yourself or others. Stay away from guns. ヽ(ヅ)ノ
[8~{} Uncle Concerned Monster
DDS
g***@aol.com
2017-10-12 16:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 08:36:01 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
Post by g***@aol.com
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
Post by gregz
Post by Oren
Post by Tekkie®
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
+1
Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45
seconds)
Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.
<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>
After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.
To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.
What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.
Also troubling,
What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?
It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.
The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?
The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?
There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.
The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.
It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.
And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to report
the shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,
from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,
but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fire
on the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,
came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidence
fully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You're
claiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, it
may have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited number
of calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantly
less noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.
The other
Post by g***@aol.com
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.
There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the
31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, we
don't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police have
said that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,
they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel did
with that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's sounding
like maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,
that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reporters
to make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.
What is missing in all of this is where was the warning? (or any real
response)

They had 6 minutes but as far as we can tell, the first real
indication that anything was going on was people at the concert being
shot.
You are right that there is still a lot we are not being told and we
have reason to question what they tell us, simply because the story
keeps changing.
gregz
2017-10-13 07:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by trader_4
Post by g***@aol.com
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
Post by gregz
Post by Oren
Post by Tekkie®
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
+1
Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45
seconds)
Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.
<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>
After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.
To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.
What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.
Also troubling,
What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?
It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.
The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?
The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?
There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.
The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.
It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming.
And how do you know exactly how many guests called 911 or the hotel to report
the shots? Clearly the police have said that at least one did call 911,
from the 31st floor, alerted by the shots. Not by blood, not by bullets,
but by the sound. That call apparently came 6 mins before he opened fire
on the concert. Six mins is a long time and that 6 mins, in this case,
came from the fact that shots were heard inside the hotel. The evidence
fully supports exactly the opposite of what you're claiming. You're
claiming that as it was, not many calls came in. But enough did, it
may have been the first call to police. Now if it was a limited number
of calls from the sound, that strongly suggests that with significantly
less noise, no call based on shots being heard would have been made.
The other
Post by g***@aol.com
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.
There apparently was a call, right then, to 911 from a guest on the
31st floor. Whether the hotel called 911, based on the guard, we
don't know. The police and hotel have not said. The police have
said that the guard did immediately notify hotel security, via radio,
they have the tape of that. What is missing is what the hotel did
with that. From their silence, hard as it is to imagine, it's sounding
like maybe they didn't call 911. You'd surely think that if they did,
that someone by now would have cleared that up. Time for the reporters
to make FOIA requests for the 911 logs and tapes.
Post by g***@aol.com
I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)
I also would think someone walking around outside would hear window
breakage or It hitting below. Speculation about suicide alarms on all
windows.

Greg
gregz
2017-10-13 07:09:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@aol.com
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
Post by gregz
Post by Oren
Post by Tekkie®
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
+1
Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45
seconds)
Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.
<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>
After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.
To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.
What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.
Also troubling,
What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?
It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.
The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?
The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?
There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.
The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.
It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming. The other
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.
I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)
The guy two floors down was calling everyone, and complained about the 72
minute delay. There were people up top outside in bar.

Greg
trader_4
2017-10-13 15:13:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by gregz
Post by g***@aol.com
On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
Post by gregz
Post by Oren
Post by Tekkie®
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
+1
Called "shot spotter". The units have to be up 30 ft or so. It
triangulates the shots near instantly and provides the GPS. (<45
seconds)
Las Vegas does not have the system. About 90 large metro areas do have
them.
<http://www.shotspotter.com/technology>
After watching some new and old videos, it's possible to triangulate witht
current videos recorded. I'm hearing two shooters. Someone also brilliantly
calculated times of hits vs shoots. There are two distinct shooters
separated by almost 200 meters. You hear the hits well before the shoots,
supersonic flight, but there are two time delays. I also saw flashes from
32 floor of Mandalay. Not much heard about the fellow two floors saying it
took 72 minutes for swat to enter.
To enter what? It was widely reported from the very beginning that the
police did not breech the hotel room door until until about 72 mins
after the attack began. They entered the hotel much earlier, were on
the 31st floor about 18 mins in. That part continues to change.
What's shocking to me is that a week in, the police suddenly changed
the timeline and it's not just the minutes. More problematic is the
sequence. In the early days, they had the arrival of the hotel security
guard ending the attack. Now they say he arrived for a totally unrelated
alarm about an open door on the floor, that his arrival prompted the
first shooting, at him. He was wounded, the attack on the crowd started
6 mins later. I can understand how timelines need to be adjusted for
mins, but how could the whole sequence be wrong for a week? Where has
this guard been? You;d think he'd be calling police, saying hey, the
way you're telling it is all wrong.
Also troubling,
What are the odds of an unrelated door open alarm occurring at the same time?
It's been reported that Paddock fired 200 rounds through the door at
the security guard and that he had cameras installed in the hall so he
could see the hall outside. The security guard heard drilling coming
from the room, he went to see what it was about. Paddock was well
prepared, well armed, could see the guy in the hall, why didn't he
just answer the door and kill him? Seems far more certain than shooting
through the door. And if you were firing through the door, you'd
think you'd act like you were answering the door, so the guard would
be right outside.
The guard was shot in the leg, yet the police say he was still on the
32 floor when an building engineer found him. Wouldn't you crawl
the hell out of there?
The hotel said yesterday that they believe the new police timeline
is incorrect, but would not say anything more, like WHY?
There is a lot there for all kinds of speculation. You'd think by
now we'd have all the 911 calls. Instead, we don't even know if
the hotel made a 911 call following the security guard getting shot.
The official story is that he notified hotel security when he was
shot, I think there are tapes of that, but then nothing about when
the hotel called 911 or if they called at all. We have heard that
there was at least one 911 call from a guest on the 31st floor
who heard the shooting, presumably that was the first event, the
shooting of the guard.
The police have made a real mess of this and have done little to
clear it up.
It certainly points out the stupidity of saying a silencer would have
made this worse.
If firing 200 unsuppressed shots at a security guard wasn't reported
by all the other guests on that floor and did not raise the alarm,
then the sound of gun shots is not all that alarming. The other
question is why there was no 911 call right then. Everyone has a phone
these days and the guard most certainly had a radio.
I agree something stinks here. It is not surprising that we get so
many whacky conspiracy theories. I hope George Bush and Dick Cheney
have good alibis ;-)
The guy two floors down was calling everyone, and complained about the 72
minute delay. There were people up top outside in bar.
Greg
What 72 min delay? No matter which timeline you believe is correct,
the shooting only lasted ~18 mins. It took about 72 mins from the
time of the first shot to police blowing the door on his hotel room,
but the shooting was over in 18 mins tops, so I don't see why anyone
2 floors down would be complaining about a 72 min delay. Also, it's
pretty well documented that police were on the 31st floor, the source
of at least one 911 call, about 12 - 18 mins after the first shot,
depending on which timeline you believe.
g***@aol.com
2017-10-13 16:25:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 08:13:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
What 72 min delay? No matter which timeline you believe is correct,
the shooting only lasted ~18 mins. It took about 72 mins from the
time of the first shot to police blowing the door on his hotel room,
but the shooting was over in 18 mins tops, so I don't see why anyone
2 floors down would be complaining about a 72 min delay. Also, it's
pretty well documented that police were on the 31st floor, the source
of at least one 911 call, about 12 - 18 mins after the first shot,
depending on which timeline you believe.
At this point, I am not sure what to believe. For something where
there are so many recorders going and so much private surveillance
going on, I am surprised we are having so much confusion. I really
believed casino hotels had cameras everywhere, just to stop those high
tech fraud capers. Police radio traffic is recorded along with 911.
Maybe they really don't have clocks in Vegas.
trader_4
2017-10-13 16:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@aol.com
On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 08:13:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
What 72 min delay? No matter which timeline you believe is correct,
the shooting only lasted ~18 mins. It took about 72 mins from the
time of the first shot to police blowing the door on his hotel room,
but the shooting was over in 18 mins tops, so I don't see why anyone
2 floors down would be complaining about a 72 min delay. Also, it's
pretty well documented that police were on the 31st floor, the source
of at least one 911 call, about 12 - 18 mins after the first shot,
depending on which timeline you believe.
At this point, I am not sure what to believe. For something where
there are so many recorders going and so much private surveillance
going on, I am surprised we are having so much confusion. I really
believed casino hotels had cameras everywhere, just to stop those high
tech fraud capers. Police radio traffic is recorded along with 911.
Maybe they really don't have clocks in Vegas.
+1

It really is inexcusable. LV has more cameras per sq ft than anywhere
in the world, don't they? Surely that hotel has cameras showing the
police entering, going to the elevator, probably in the halls too.
There was an initial alarm tripped by a door open on the 32nd floor,
an event the police say had nothing to do with the shooter. The
security system would log that event with a time. Even my home system
does that. Where are the 911 call tapes, which would be time stamped?
This really is beyond stupid. You had the police and FBI combing
the concert grounds, inside the room, doing all kinds of mock ups of
shooting angles, recovering bullets, yet two weeks later, they still
can't put together and accurate and credible time line.
rbowman
2017-10-14 02:29:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@aol.com
On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 08:13:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
What 72 min delay? No matter which timeline you believe is correct,
the shooting only lasted ~18 mins. It took about 72 mins from the
time of the first shot to police blowing the door on his hotel room,
but the shooting was over in 18 mins tops, so I don't see why anyone
2 floors down would be complaining about a 72 min delay. Also, it's
pretty well documented that police were on the 31st floor, the source
of at least one 911 call, about 12 - 18 mins after the first shot,
depending on which timeline you believe.
At this point, I am not sure what to believe. For something where
there are so many recorders going and so much private surveillance
going on, I am surprised we are having so much confusion. I really
believed casino hotels had cameras everywhere, just to stop those high
tech fraud capers. Police radio traffic is recorded along with 911.
Maybe they really don't have clocks in Vegas.
They came out with their third time line today. I think you're right. If
they wanted to convince the world they screwed up and to spawn a bunch
of conspiracy theories they did a heck of a job.
Oren
2017-10-14 19:56:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by rbowman
They came out with their third time line today.
<http://video.foxnews.com/v/5609606909001/?playlist_id=2114913880001#sp=show-clips>

Time lines get adjusted. I've done it myself as details are known. Our
Sheriff is not prone to knee-jerk, arm-chair suppositions. He is very
detail oriented. I voted for him. He did what he said he would do.
Eliminated the handgun permit (blue cards) and spent money elsewhere.
Tekkie®
2017-10-16 19:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Oren posted for all of us...
Post by Oren
Post by rbowman
They came out with their third time line today.
<http://video.foxnews.com/v/5609606909001/?playlist_id=2114913880001#sp=show-clips>
Time lines get adjusted. I've done it myself as details are known. Our
Sheriff is not prone to knee-jerk, arm-chair suppositions. He is very
detail oriented. I voted for him. He did what he said he would do.
Eliminated the handgun permit (blue cards) and spent money elsewhere.
People that are ignorant of emergency situations often fall prey to this.
The sense of it perhaps can be found if one has fallen, gotten into a car
crash, victim of a crime, fallen ill suddenly, etc. WTF just happened & how
did I end up here (where am I) and when...
--
Tekkie
Oren
2017-10-16 20:39:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tekkie®
Oren posted for all of us...
Post by Oren
Post by rbowman
They came out with their third time line today.
<http://video.foxnews.com/v/5609606909001/?playlist_id=2114913880001#sp=show-clips>
Time lines get adjusted. I've done it myself as details are known. Our
Sheriff is not prone to knee-jerk, arm-chair suppositions. He is very
detail oriented. I voted for him. He did what he said he would do.
Eliminated the handgun permit (blue cards) and spent money elsewhere.
People that are ignorant of emergency situations often fall prey to this.
The sense of it perhaps can be found if one has fallen, gotten into a car
crash, victim of a crime, fallen ill suddenly, etc. WTF just happened & how
did I end up here (where am I) and when...
Right. It takes time to collect everything, sort it all out and make
an inference as to what happened. BTDT in emergencies and after.

LVMPD has hundreds of cameras to view, thousands of pieces of evidence
to process, etc. to go through for a complete, factual, evidentiary,
final report.

"get the ducks in a row" --

This case will be an example for all similar future investigation
events for police. Don't screw the pouch...
trader_4
2017-10-17 00:11:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oren
Post by Tekkie®
Oren posted for all of us...
Post by Oren
Post by rbowman
They came out with their third time line today.
<http://video.foxnews.com/v/5609606909001/?playlist_id=2114913880001#sp=show-clips>
Time lines get adjusted. I've done it myself as details are known. Our
Sheriff is not prone to knee-jerk, arm-chair suppositions. He is very
detail oriented. I voted for him. He did what he said he would do.
Eliminated the handgun permit (blue cards) and spent money elsewhere.
People that are ignorant of emergency situations often fall prey to this.
The sense of it perhaps can be found if one has fallen, gotten into a car
crash, victim of a crime, fallen ill suddenly, etc. WTF just happened & how
did I end up here (where am I) and when...
Right. It takes time to collect everything, sort it all out and make
an inference as to what happened. BTDT in emergencies and after.
LVMPD has hundreds of cameras to view, thousands of pieces of evidence
to process, etc. to go through for a complete, factual, evidentiary,
final report.
"get the ducks in a row" --
This case will be an example for all similar future investigation
events for police. Don't screw the pouch...
The most bizarre part is not the actual minute counts, it's that
the sequence was so wrong for a week. For a week the police said
that the arrival of the security guard was at the end of the 11 min
shooting, implying that the guard's arrival may have ended it,
etc. Then it turns out he showed up before any shots were fired
and they said that it was actually 6 mins from him being shot
to when the shooter opened fire on the crowd.
You would think that would be very hard to get wrong for a week
whether the guard showed up 6 mins before the shooting or at
the end of it. And then the hotel said there was no 6 mins gap
and finally the police agree. So, as of now, AFAIK, the guard
showed up, got shot, and within a minute the shooter opened fire
on the crowd.

g***@aol.com
2017-10-09 20:06:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Tekkie®
Post by g***@aol.com
Post by Bob F
Post by g***@aol.com
Post by Bob F
Post by g***@aol.com
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.
There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheering
then tho.
The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of the
videos I saw.
Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
When you hear the time line in Vegas, they figured out where this guy
was right away. A security guard was knocking on his door in about 10
minutes and the cops were there in 11. The shooting stopped right
after he put a couple hundred rounds through the door at the security
guard.
For all extents and purposes it was over then. Whether he shot himself
right then or if he waited until they breached the door we may never
know.
My guess is he saw a uniform and assumed the cops were on him with the
security guard. Rumor is the smoke detector went off and that was why
the guard went up there.
That $10 an hour guard is the one who stopped the carnage tho.
Oren
2017-10-09 20:22:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@aol.com
When you hear the time line in Vegas, they figured out where this guy
was right away. A security guard was knocking on his door in about 10
minutes and the cops were there in 11. The shooting stopped right
after he put a couple hundred rounds through the door at the security
guard.
For all extents and purposes it was over then. Whether he shot himself
right then or if he waited until they breached the door we may never
know.
My guess is he saw a uniform and assumed the cops were on him with the
security guard. Rumor is the smoke detector went off and that was why
the guard went up there.
That $10 an hour guard is the one who stopped the carnage tho.
Time line:
<https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/minute-by-minute-breakdown-of-las-vegas-strip-shooting-timeline/>

That "guard" makes more than $10 and hour. Well trained and might use
a little more force. Vegas hires their "guards" by the pound. They
ain't stiffs sitting around in a bank.
g***@aol.com
2017-10-09 22:43:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Oren
Post by g***@aol.com
When you hear the time line in Vegas, they figured out where this guy
was right away. A security guard was knocking on his door in about 10
minutes and the cops were there in 11. The shooting stopped right
after he put a couple hundred rounds through the door at the security
guard.
For all extents and purposes it was over then. Whether he shot himself
right then or if he waited until they breached the door we may never
know.
My guess is he saw a uniform and assumed the cops were on him with the
security guard. Rumor is the smoke detector went off and that was why
the guard went up there.
That $10 an hour guard is the one who stopped the carnage tho.
<https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/minute-by-minute-breakdown-of-las-vegas-strip-shooting-timeline/>
That "guard" makes more than $10 and hour. Well trained and might use
a little more force. Vegas hires their "guards" by the pound. They
ain't stiffs sitting around in a bank.
Him showing up outside the door seems to be the thing that stopped the
shooting, after he took fire.
rbowman
2017-10-10 03:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by g***@aol.com
Post by Oren
Post by g***@aol.com
When you hear the time line in Vegas, they figured out where this guy
was right away. A security guard was knocking on his door in about 10
minutes and the cops were there in 11. The shooting stopped right
after he put a couple hundred rounds through the door at the security
guard.
For all extents and purposes it was over then. Whether he shot himself
right then or if he waited until they breached the door we may never
know.
My guess is he saw a uniform and assumed the cops were on him with the
security guard. Rumor is the smoke detector went off and that was why
the guard went up there.
That $10 an hour guard is the one who stopped the carnage tho.
<https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/the-strip/minute-by-minute-breakdown-of-las-vegas-strip-shooting-timeline/>
That "guard" makes more than $10 and hour. Well trained and might use
a little more force. Vegas hires their "guards" by the pound. They
ain't stiffs sitting around in a bank.
Him showing up outside the door seems to be the thing that stopped the
shooting, after he took fire.
I'm sure there were tense moments but the drama told by the breaching
team seems a little over the top. The service cart might be an IED.
There might be 50 jihadis in the room. And that's after nothing has been
stirring, not even a mouse for about an hour.
g***@aol.com
2017-10-10 03:37:23 UTC
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Post by rbowman
Post by g***@aol.com
Him showing up outside the door seems to be the thing that stopped the
shooting, after he took fire.
I'm sure there were tense moments but the drama told by the breaching
team seems a little over the top. The service cart might be an IED.
There might be 50 jihadis in the room. And that's after nothing has been
stirring, not even a mouse for about an hour.
Now they are changing the time line and saying the guard was shot 6
minutes before the attack on the crowd. If that is true it opens up
more questions. How can someone fire hundreds of shots in a hotel
without attracting more attention than seems to be brought to bear?
rbowman
2017-10-10 04:55:55 UTC
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Post by g***@aol.com
Now they are changing the time line and saying the guard was shot 6
minutes before the attack on the crowd. If that is true it opens up
more questions. How can someone fire hundreds of shots in a hotel
without attracting more attention than seems to be brought to bear?
The SWAT team also said they were delayed because Paddock jammed the
doors to the 32nd floor. So did the security guard take the elevator?
One time line also said there was a LEO on the 32nd floor who was told
to stand down until the SWAT team showed up. That took about an hour.

They really needed a press officer to feed out a coherent narrative if
they didn't want to provide material for a couple of years' worth of
conspiracy theories.
g***@aol.com
2017-10-10 05:55:18 UTC
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Post by rbowman
Post by g***@aol.com
Now they are changing the time line and saying the guard was shot 6
minutes before the attack on the crowd. If that is true it opens up
more questions. How can someone fire hundreds of shots in a hotel
without attracting more attention than seems to be brought to bear?
The SWAT team also said they were delayed because Paddock jammed the
doors to the 32nd floor. So did the security guard take the elevator?
One time line also said there was a LEO on the 32nd floor who was told
to stand down until the SWAT team showed up. That took about an hour.
They really needed a press officer to feed out a coherent narrative if
they didn't want to provide material for a couple of years' worth of
conspiracy theories.
I am sure the conspiracy guys are already out there with all sorts of
theories.
Bubba
2017-10-10 08:48:11 UTC
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Post by g***@aol.com
I am sure the conspiracy guys are already out there with all sorts of
theories.
Yah, considering the lawyers for the grieving widows are preparing their cases, I suspect there is a lot of spin going on.
trader_4
2017-10-10 16:16:59 UTC
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Post by g***@aol.com
Post by rbowman
Post by g***@aol.com
Him showing up outside the door seems to be the thing that stopped the
shooting, after he took fire.
I'm sure there were tense moments but the drama told by the breaching
team seems a little over the top. The service cart might be an IED.
There might be 50 jihadis in the room. And that's after nothing has been
stirring, not even a mouse for about an hour.
Now they are changing the time line and saying the guard was shot 6
minutes before the attack on the crowd. If that is true it opens up
more questions. How can someone fire hundreds of shots in a hotel
without attracting more attention than seems to be brought to bear?
I think the answer is that they can't/didn't. It's being reported that
Paddock fired 200 rounds at the security guard. Whatever the number,
it's likely that's what resulted in the call to 911 from someone on
the 31st floor, that started the response by police. Which also explains
how they were there so quickly relative to the time he opened fire on
the crowd. They had an extra 6 mins.

What I can't understand is how the timeline could be this messed up
a week into the investigation. If it was just people guessing what
time, I can see how the time could easily be off by a lot more than
6 mins. It's not the time that's so shocking, it's that it changes
the whole sequence and now there would have been an initial period
of big gunfire inside the hotel, followed by 6 mins of silence,
then the main event. How this only comes out now, IDK. The security
guard for example, must have known the whole thing was being told
wrong, that the shooting didn't end when he got there, instead the
first rounds were fired at him. And what was Paddock doing for those
new 6 mins? You'd think he knew they were on to him, that he would
have immediately gone to fire on the crowd. It took 6 mins to break
windows? IDK. You're right about the other comment, that this
just fuels the conspiracy nuts. I don't have a lot of confidence
at this point in the police investigation. And where is the hero
security guard? You'd think he'd be interviewed, be on the morning
talk shows, etc.
g***@aol.com
2017-10-10 17:17:24 UTC
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On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:16:59 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
Post by trader_4
Post by g***@aol.com
Post by rbowman
Post by g***@aol.com
Him showing up outside the door seems to be the thing that stopped the
shooting, after he took fire.
I'm sure there were tense moments but the drama told by the breaching
team seems a little over the top. The service cart might be an IED.
There might be 50 jihadis in the room. And that's after nothing has been
stirring, not even a mouse for about an hour.
Now they are changing the time line and saying the guard was shot 6
minutes before the attack on the crowd. If that is true it opens up
more questions. How can someone fire hundreds of shots in a hotel
without attracting more attention than seems to be brought to bear?
I think the answer is that they can't/didn't. It's being reported that
Paddock fired 200 rounds at the security guard. Whatever the number,
it's likely that's what resulted in the call to 911 from someone on
the 31st floor, that started the response by police. Which also explains
how they were there so quickly relative to the time he opened fire on
the crowd. They had an extra 6 mins.
What I can't understand is how the timeline could be this messed up
a week into the investigation. If it was just people guessing what
time, I can see how the time could easily be off by a lot more than
6 mins. It's not the time that's so shocking, it's that it changes
the whole sequence and now there would have been an initial period
of big gunfire inside the hotel, followed by 6 mins of silence,
then the main event. How this only comes out now, IDK. The security
guard for example, must have known the whole thing was being told
wrong, that the shooting didn't end when he got there, instead the
first rounds were fired at him. And what was Paddock doing for those
new 6 mins? You'd think he knew they were on to him, that he would
have immediately gone to fire on the crowd. It took 6 mins to break
windows? IDK. You're right about the other comment, that this
just fuels the conspiracy nuts. I don't have a lot of confidence
at this point in the police investigation. And where is the hero
security guard? You'd think he'd be interviewed, be on the morning
talk shows, etc.
Haven't you heard, this was a BATF gun runner who was running a sting
on ISIS, they found out, shot him, shot all the people and got away. I
read it on the internet, it must be true. ;-)

BTW if they want the bump stock bill, attach it to the hearing
protection act, swapping bump stocks for suppressors in NFA34,
regulate suppressors like firearms and move on.
trader_4
2017-10-09 21:29:44 UTC
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Post by g***@aol.com
Post by Tekkie®
Post by g***@aol.com
Post by Bob F
Post by g***@aol.com
Post by Bob F
Post by g***@aol.com
The people there said they did not realize they were being shot at
until people started falling.
The shots were very audible in the cell phone videos shot from the concert.
There was not a 110 dB band playing and thousands of people cheering
then tho.
The band was playing, IIRC, at the time the shots started in one of the
videos I saw.
Not the ones I saw. People were running around in panic.
In practical terms it's very hard to determine where a shooter is because of
the reverberation off of buildings, etc. Muzzle flash is better. In some
cities they have strategically placed listening devices to pinpoint the
location.
When you hear the time line in Vegas, they figured out where this guy
was right away. A security guard was knocking on his door in about 10
minutes and the cops were there in 11. The shooting stopped right
after he put a couple hundred rounds through the door at the security
guard.
For all extents and purposes it was over then. Whether he shot himself
right then or if he waited until they breached the door we may never
know.
IDK why we don't know. Like you say cops were there 11 minutes or so
into it, about the time the shooting ended. Either they heard another
single shot later, or they didn't. Even if he shot himself as they
first arrived, you'd think they would have heard the auto fire end
and then a single shot. Since we haven't heard anything, maybe it
happened in a brief period between when the security guy got shot,
retreated and when the cops arrived. But still you'd think somebody
whether near the door, inside the hotel, outside, would have heard
that final single shot and be talking about it. It is a bit weird.
abe
2017-10-05 23:58:19 UTC
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The metabolic syndrome diseases cause many times more deaths than all guns combined yet the news-media is not ranting about banning refined carbohydrates.  Why?
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