Clarification question - remove problematic Zurn Wilkins 975XL backflow prevention valve

[Danny D.]

In another thread we discussed a constantly problematic Zurn Wilkins 975XL
1-inch backflow-prevention valve, that doesn't actually do anything (since
it's on top of a hill).

I thought I had fixed the leaking valve - but it started leaking again, so,
I completely give up on fixing that poor design since I've taken it apart a
dozen times and there's nothing I can see that is wrong with it. Yet it
leaks.

And, even if I did fix it, it will invariably leak again soon.

I'm not a plumber, so, my only question is clarification of the two spots
that were suggested to *remove* the valve (and replace with a pipe).

Would you kindly look at this picture and advise me which location is the
removal point? (I'm confused because twisting a pipe in one direction
simply tightens it in the other direction.)

Loading Image...

[Taxed and Spent]

Post by Danny D.
In another thread we discussed a constantly problematic Zurn Wilkins 975XL
1-inch backflow-prevention valve, that doesn't actually do anything (since
it's on top of a hill).
I thought I had fixed the leaking valve - but it started leaking again, so,
I completely give up on fixing that poor design since I've taken it apart a
dozen times and there's nothing I can see that is wrong with it. Yet it
leaks.
And, even if I did fix it, it will invariably leak again soon.
I'm not a plumber, so, my only question is clarification of the two spots
that were suggested to *remove* the valve (and replace with a pipe).
Would you kindly look at this picture and advise me which location is the
removal point? (I'm confused because twisting a pipe in one direction
simply tightens it in the other direction.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/tHjqRh.jpg

Remove at the yellow. Once off, you can take apart at the red, insert a
solid pipe, and then reconnect at the yellow.

Figure out how a "pipe union" works!

I don't suppose you have taken seriously the obvious thing to try:
insert a filter on the inlet, to keep out the crap that is likely
causing the problem.

You call it a "poor design", but there are millions of these in use with
no real problems.

[Taxed and Spent]

Post by Taxed and Spent

Post by Danny D.
In another thread we discussed a constantly problematic Zurn Wilkins 975XL
1-inch backflow-prevention valve, that doesn't actually do anything (since
it's on top of a hill).
I thought I had fixed the leaking valve - but it started leaking again, so,
I completely give up on fixing that poor design since I've taken it apart a
dozen times and there's nothing I can see that is wrong with it. Yet it
leaks.
And, even if I did fix it, it will invariably leak again soon.
I'm not a plumber, so, my only question is clarification of the two spots
that were suggested to *remove* the valve (and replace with a pipe).
Would you kindly look at this picture and advise me which location is the
removal point? (I'm confused because twisting a pipe in one direction
simply tightens it in the other direction.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/tHjqRh.jpg

Remove at the yellow. Once off, you can take apart at the red, insert a
solid pipe, and then reconnect at the yellow.
Figure out how a "pipe union" works!
insert a filter on the inlet, to keep out the crap that is likely
causing the problem.
You call it a "poor design", but there are millions of these in use with
no real problems.

This is a pipe union, which is at your yellow locations:

Loading Image...


When you finish your repair, I imagine it will look pretty much like this:


Loading Image...

[FromTheRafters]

Post by Taxed and Spent

Post by Taxed and Spent

Post by Danny D.
In another thread we discussed a constantly problematic Zurn Wilkins 975XL
1-inch backflow-prevention valve, that doesn't actually do anything (since
it's on top of a hill).
I thought I had fixed the leaking valve - but it started leaking again, so,
I completely give up on fixing that poor design since I've taken it apart a
dozen times and there's nothing I can see that is wrong with it. Yet it
leaks.
And, even if I did fix it, it will invariably leak again soon.
I'm not a plumber, so, my only question is clarification of the two spots
that were suggested to *remove* the valve (and replace with a pipe).
Would you kindly look at this picture and advise me which location is the
removal point? (I'm confused because twisting a pipe in one direction
simply tightens it in the other direction.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/tHjqRh.jpg

Remove at the yellow. Once off, you can take apart at the red, insert a
solid pipe, and then reconnect at the yellow.
Figure out how a "pipe union" works!
insert a filter on the inlet, to keep out the crap that is likely
causing the problem.
You call it a "poor design", but there are millions of these in use with
no real problems.

http://i.imgur.com/YHLMuL1.jpg
http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/mechanics/Mechanical-Processes/images/Fig-216-Example-of-Pipe-Fitting.jpg

LOL

That reminds me of our home water filtration setup. We have two wells
and many valves and I hear submarine commands in my head when switching
them over.

[Danny D.]

Post by FromTheRafters
That reminds me of our home water filtration setup. We have two wells
and many valves and I hear submarine commands in my head when switching
them over.

It reminded me of my pool pump setup, where I have about 17 valves and
three separate pumps and pipes going every which way!

[Oren]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:15:23 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by FromTheRafters
That reminds me of our home water filtration setup. We have two wells
and many valves and I hear submarine commands in my head when switching
them over.

It reminded me of my pool pump setup, where I have about 17 valves and
three separate pumps and pipes going every which way!

I can't figure out if this valve is related to back flow to your pool?

[Oren]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 08:36:39 -0700, Taxed and Spent

Post by Taxed and Spent
http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/mechanics/Mechanical-Processes/images/Fig-216-Example-of-Pipe-Fitting.jpg

Almost like Danny's pool pump git-up :-)

<Loading Image...>

[Taxed and Spent]

Post by Oren
On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 08:36:39 -0700, Taxed and Spent

Post by Taxed and Spent
http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/mechanics/Mechanical-Processes/images/Fig-216-Example-of-Pipe-Fitting.jpg

Almost like Danny's pool pump git-up :-)
<http://oi64.tinypic.com/ildt13.jpg>

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M9bb34f68e7f0e527f5afb11e2a66af04H0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=260&h=160

[CRNG]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 08:36:39 -0700, Taxed and Spent

Post by Taxed and Spent
http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/mechanics/Mechanical-Processes/images/Fig-216-Example-of-Pipe-Fitting.jpg

LOL!

[trader_4]

Post by Taxed and Spent

Post by Danny D.
In another thread we discussed a constantly problematic Zurn Wilkins 975XL
1-inch backflow-prevention valve, that doesn't actually do anything (since
it's on top of a hill).
I thought I had fixed the leaking valve - but it started leaking again, so,
I completely give up on fixing that poor design since I've taken it apart a
dozen times and there's nothing I can see that is wrong with it. Yet it
leaks.
And, even if I did fix it, it will invariably leak again soon.
I'm not a plumber, so, my only question is clarification of the two spots
that were suggested to *remove* the valve (and replace with a pipe).
Would you kindly look at this picture and advise me which location is the
removal point? (I'm confused because twisting a pipe in one direction
simply tightens it in the other direction.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/tHjqRh.jpg

Remove at the yellow. Once off, you can take apart at the red, insert a
solid pipe, and then reconnect at the yellow.
Figure out how a "pipe union" works!
insert a filter on the inlet, to keep out the crap that is likely
causing the problem.
You call it a "poor design", but there are millions of these in use with
no real problems.

The backflow preventer probably isn't a poor design. But it appears to
be installed in a location where one isn't needed and will do absolutely
nothing positive. The only possible reason would be if there is some
code that someone interpreted to mean that it was required.
As D has explained it, this valve is on the output of a tank on top
of a hill that feeds water downhill to his house.

And I agree, it comes off via the unions shown by the yellow. He'd
probably realize that himself if he just unwound the tape around them.

[Danny D.]

Post by Taxed and Spent
Remove at the yellow. Once off, you can take apart at the red, insert a
solid pipe, and then reconnect at the yellow.

Thank you for your patience, as until you said that, I hadn't realized you
remove it at the (yellow) pipe unions first, and only then, you remove it
at the (red) ball valves.

Since the pipe nipple has to be pre measured, is this the distance you'd
use (midpoint between the two shutoff ball valves)?
Loading Image...

Post by Taxed and Spent
Figure out how a "pipe union" works!

My only experience with pipe unions were with the white plastic pool pump
pipe unions, which glue onto the incoming pipes, so reverse threading
wasn't an issue in those repairs - and exact measuring wasn't necessary
because I could always easily trim off excess pipe.

Post by Taxed and Spent
insert a filter on the inlet, to keep out the crap that is likely
causing the problem.

If the valve actually did something, I might take its repair more
seriously.

As it is, it's on the top of a hill, so, the chance of water being pushed
or siphoned into it has got to be near zero.

To be clear, I have been repairing this valve for years.
I'm just sick of it.

It's a poor design.

Post by Taxed and Spent
You call it a "poor design", but there are millions of these in use with
no real problems.

Given that this 1-inch Zurn Wilkins 975XL backflow preventer requires
constant service, the support is pretty good.

Today I called 855-663-9876 and received a call back from a technical
support guy named Daniel at 805-238-7100.

He said that I should flush the valve by removing the #1 poppet assembly,
and then the #2 poppet assembly, and then to put my hand over the #1
opening and then turn the water supply on. Since my water supply is
something like 70psi, that shot water out almost 10 feet. There is no way
there is still debris stuck in there - yet - still it leaks.

Daniel told me the classic test is to see if the water leaks in both cases:
1. When there is no irrigation in use, and,
2. When the irrigation is in use.

Since my Zurn Wilkins 975XL backflow prevention valve only leaks when there
is no irrigation in use, he said to further test by:
a. Turning off any sprinklers (if any)
b. Turn both check valves on (in my case, this starts it leaking)
c. Shut off the #2 check valve - if that stops the leaking - then #2 is
fouled. (In my case, this did not stop the leaking.)

Daniel said that if the test above didn't stop the leak, then the problem
is most likely the #1 check valve, or sometimes the relief valve, both of
which I have taken apart umpteen times already.

He said in that circumstance, I should just replace the entire innards with
the three separate repair kits, which I can find on Amazon for $100:
https://www.amazon.com/Wilkins-RK114-975XLC-Complete-Repair-Rings/dp/B00GG1RQS6/ref=pd_bxgy_469_3

The required tool for removing the three seats is about $50
https://www.amazon.com/WILKINS-SEAT-REMOVAL-TOOL-REPAIR/dp/B00AHDTO7A/ref=pd_bxgy_469_2

So, for about $150, I can probably fix the dastardly thing.
But, what's frustrating is that I can't *see* anything wrong with it.
It's *not* fouled.

Note that a brand new Zurn Wilkins 1-975XL is about $250:
http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/Wilkins-Pressure-Vacuum-Breaker-Assemblies-s/9537.htm

[trader_4]

Post by Danny D.

Post by Taxed and Spent
Remove at the yellow. Once off, you can take apart at the red, insert a
solid pipe, and then reconnect at the yellow.

Thank you for your patience, as until you said that, I hadn't realized you
remove it at the (yellow) pipe unions first, and only then, you remove it
at the (red) ball valves.
Since the pipe nipple has to be pre measured, is this the distance you'd
use (midpoint between the two shutoff ball valves)?
http://i.cubeupload.com/nwV7Rt.jpg

Post by Taxed and Spent
Figure out how a "pipe union" works!

My only experience with pipe unions were with the white plastic pool pump
pipe unions, which glue onto the incoming pipes, so reverse threading
wasn't an issue in those repairs

Reverse threading, whatever that means, isn't an issue here either.
Unions are unions.


- and exact measuring wasn't necessary

Post by Danny D.
because I could always easily trim off excess pipe.

You can do exactly the same here, trim the pipe, if you use PVC.

Post by Danny D.

Post by Taxed and Spent
insert a filter on the inlet, to keep out the crap that is likely
causing the problem.

If the valve actually did something, I might take its repair more
seriously.
As it is, it's on the top of a hill, so, the chance of water being pushed
or siphoned into it has got to be near zero.

+1

[Danny D.]

Post by trader_4
Reverse threading, whatever that means, isn't an issue here either.

The ball valves can't be screwed off it seems to me, because if I try to
spin them off on the one side, they will spin on for the other side - which
means they won't move (unless they're reverse threaded).

At least that's how I "see" it (from my non-plumber perspective).

The main "plumbing" I've done is working on the PVC pipes here:
Loading Image...

Post by trader_4
You can do exactly the same here, trim the pipe, if you use PVC.

Well, this is how I trim pipe at the pool:
Loading Image...

Sometimes I use this instead of a hacksaw:
Loading Image...

But I often have fitting problems when I mess up in measurements:
Loading Image...

So I try to be doubly sure of measurements. :)

[trader_4]

Post by Danny D.

Post by trader_4
Reverse threading, whatever that means, isn't an issue here either.

The ball valves can't be screwed off it seems to me, because if I try to
spin them off on the one side, they will spin on for the other side - which
means they won't move (unless they're reverse threaded).

They aren't reverse threaded. That's why the unions are there so
you can disassemble it for repair/replacement.

Post by Danny D.
At least that's how I "see" it (from my non-plumber perspective).
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/13343543/img/13343543.jpg

Post by trader_4
You can do exactly the same here, trim the pipe, if you use PVC.

http://i.cubeupload.com/kCyBHn.jpg
http://i.cubeupload.com/7r0mkb.jpg
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335317/img/13335317.jpg
So I try to be doubly sure of measurements. :)

You must be related to the fellow my grandfather referenced:

"I cut it three times now, but it's still too short."

[Oren]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:28:39 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335317/img/13335317.jpg
So I try to be doubly sure of measurements. :)

Dry fit the pipes first.

[trader_4]

Post by Oren
On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:28:39 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335317/img/13335317.jpg
So I try to be doubly sure of measurements. :)

Dry fit the pipes first.

That's a lot harder than it sounds. Those PVC fittings are tapered
and it's difficult to get them fully seated without cement there
which starts to dissolve it. And if you beat it enough to get it
all the way on dry, it's hard to get apart again. They really should
have slightly oversize fittings that you could buy just for dry
fitting. Most times, it doesn't matter because that much precision
isn't needed, but sometimes you do need it. Around the pool pump
I've seen it be a problem.

[burfordTjustice]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 11:58:05 -0700 (PDT)

Post by trader_4

Post by Oren
On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:28:39 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335317/img/13335317.jpg
So I try to be doubly sure of measurements. :)

Dry fit the pipes first.

That's a lot harder than it sounds. Those PVC fittings are tapered
and it's difficult to get them fully seated without cement there
which starts to dissolve it. And if you beat it enough to get it
all the way on dry, it's hard to get apart again. They really should
have slightly oversize fittings that you could buy just for dry
fitting. Most times, it doesn't matter because that much precision
isn't needed, but sometimes you do need it. Around the pool pump
I've seen it be a problem.

What a load of nonsense.

With all your expertise on so many subjects why are you
not worth a million dollars or more??

[trader_4]

Post by burfordTjustice
On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 11:58:05 -0700 (PDT)

Post by trader_4

Post by Oren
On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:28:39 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13335317/img/13335317.jpg
So I try to be doubly sure of measurements. :)

Dry fit the pipes first.

That's a lot harder than it sounds. Those PVC fittings are tapered
and it's difficult to get them fully seated without cement there
which starts to dissolve it. And if you beat it enough to get it
all the way on dry, it's hard to get apart again. They really should
have slightly oversize fittings that you could buy just for dry
fitting. Most times, it doesn't matter because that much precision
isn't needed, but sometimes you do need it. Around the pool pump
I've seen it be a problem.

What a load of nonsense.

Obviously you never worked much with PVC fittings or you'd know
it's true.

Post by burfordTjustice
With all your expertise on so many subjects why are you
not worth a million dollars or more??

But I am. The real question is why is a jerk that starts ten OT
posts a day, but never contributes anything productive, here?

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren

Post by Danny D.
So I try to be doubly sure of measurements. :)

Dry fit the pipes first.

I took your advice, and didn't trust my measurements.

In fact, I am glad I did the dry fit at the hardware store, because the
pipe nipple that worked was an inch shorter than I had measured!

Loading Image...

[Oren]

On Sat, 13 Aug 2016 16:26:37 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren

Post by Danny D.
So I try to be doubly sure of measurements. :)

Dry fit the pipes first.

I took your advice, and didn't trust my measurements.
In fact, I am glad I did the dry fit at the hardware store, because the
pipe nipple that worked was an inch shorter than I had measured!
http://i.cubeupload.com/B02Kvp.jpg

Huckleberries are ripe. Grab your basket and run.

[Oren]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 08:31:00 -0700, Taxed and Spent

Post by Taxed and Spent

Post by Danny D.
In another thread we discussed a constantly problematic Zurn Wilkins 975XL
1-inch backflow-prevention valve, that doesn't actually do anything (since
it's on top of a hill).
I thought I had fixed the leaking valve - but it started leaking again, so,
I completely give up on fixing that poor design since I've taken it apart a
dozen times and there's nothing I can see that is wrong with it. Yet it
leaks.
And, even if I did fix it, it will invariably leak again soon.
I'm not a plumber, so, my only question is clarification of the two spots
that were suggested to *remove* the valve (and replace with a pipe).
Would you kindly look at this picture and advise me which location is the
removal point? (I'm confused because twisting a pipe in one direction
simply tightens it in the other direction.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/tHjqRh.jpg

Remove at the yellow. Once off, you can take apart at the red, insert a
solid pipe, and then reconnect at the yellow.
Figure out how a "pipe union" works!
insert a filter on the inlet, to keep out the crap that is likely
causing the problem.
You call it a "poor design", but there are millions of these in use with
no real problems.

Zurn Wilins do-dads are / were made in Canada. Some fittings leaked
-- to much zinc was used when made. PEX fittings also leaked and
there were law suits.

Has the valve ever frozen?

The Tax man is correct, disconnect at the lower (yellow) and go to
work. Are the vertical pipes PVC?

WATTS make a good brand for a replacement valve.

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren
Zurn Wilins do-dads are / were made in Canada. Some fittings leaked
-- to much zinc was used when made. PEX fittings also leaked and
there were law suits.
Has the valve ever frozen?

I don't think so. It rarely gets that cold here.
But, it "can" get to freezing.
But why did they design these pipes to be out of the ground if it can get
to freezing?

That pipe tape isn't going to protect the pipes one bit from freezing.

Post by Oren
The Tax man is correct, disconnect at the lower (yellow) and go to
work. Are the vertical pipes PVC?

Good question.
I have no idea.
When I remove the tape, I'll know.

Is that a "special" tape?
It seems like wide printed black electrical tape.

Post by Oren
WATTS make a good brand for a replacement valve.

I think I want a simple pipe!

I don't want to do this type of repair ever again!

[Taxed and Spent]

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
Zurn Wilins do-dads are / were made in Canada. Some fittings leaked
-- to much zinc was used when made. PEX fittings also leaked and
there were law suits.
Has the valve ever frozen?

I don't think so. It rarely gets that cold here.
But, it "can" get to freezing.

I think it DOES get to freezing where you are, although I forget if you
are at the top of the hill or how far down. There have been some damn
hard freezes up there in the not too distant past, and snow on the
ground for days. When did you buy your property?

Post by Danny D.
But why did they design these pipes to be out of the ground if it can get
to freezing?

It is an anti-siphon device.

[Danny D.]

Post by Taxed and Spent
I think it DOES get to freezing where you are, although I forget if you
are at the top of the hill or how far down. There have been some damn
hard freezes up there in the not too distant past, and snow on the
ground for days. When did you buy your property?

There is sometimes a thin layer of ice (about a millimeter thick?) on
puddles on the ground in the morning, so, I agree that it *can* get to
freezing.

We get snow every five years or so, and, once in a while, it sticks for
about a 1/4 inch or so, but only for about a day or at most two.

I'm a few thousand feet up, so the clouds are almost always below me, where
I can look in on airplanes coming in for a landing below me at the local
airport as they disappear into the valley fog until about noon when the
daily fog lifts (and returns again to cover the lights of the valley by
midnight).

I've been here about a decade and it has snowed maybe twice or three times
as I recall - but it's just a light dusting that almost never sticks.

The issue is that they *knew* what the weather was when they wrapped those
pipes in that black tape - so it must be designed to take it as it doesn't
really stay cold here for very long (especially not in the past two years).

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Danny D.
The issue is that they *knew* what the weather was when they wrapped those
pipes in that black tape - so it must be designed to take it as it doesn't
really stay cold here for very long (especially not in the past two years).

That black tape is to protect the underground portions of
the pipe from corrosion. It won't do anything to prevent
freezing.

[Danny D.]

Post by Scott Lurndal
That black tape is to protect the underground portions of
the pipe from corrosion. It won't do anything to prevent
freezing.

I have to agree with you on that.

After removing the sticky tape, I noticed that it was still *very* sticky
even after a few decades out in the open, but at the hardware store, the
package for the 10mil pipe tape said it's to protect the pipes from
corrosion.
Loading Image...

Since the pipes were galvanized into the ground, I guess they wrapped from
the ground up, and just didn't bother stopping at the surface.
http://i.cubeupload.com/Wrh9jB.jpg

I never understood how "insulation" works on a water pipe, where the water
in the pipe is the same temperature as ambient.

There's no delta in temperature between the inside and outside; so what's
there to insulate?
Loading Image...

[Oren]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:30:54 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
That pipe tape isn't going to protect the pipes one bit from freezing.

Don't kid yourself. That tape serves as insulation.

I hung some old flannel shirts over valves with PVC. Built manifolds
for underground.

A few days of freezing temp and HIGH winds can break stuff.

[Oren]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 16:30:54 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Oren
Are the vertical pipes PVC?
Good question.
I have no idea.

Let us know dag it, Danny :) When you remove the tape, post a photo

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren

Post by Oren
Are the vertical pipes PVC?
Good question.
I have no idea.

Let us know dag it, Danny :) When you remove the tape, post a photo

The 1-inch valve is brass.
The 1-inch pipes above ground to each side of the valve are all galvanized.
Below ground, a foot or so away, a used the 2-inch red-handled PVC shutoff.
Then the pipes come back above ground at 2-inch galvanized into the
pressure pump equipment in the pump house.

This picture shows the water pipe to the right going from the pump house
into the ground, and then one of two valves underground (one for the house,
the other for the irrigation system).

http://i.cubeupload.com/cMcINF.jpg

I think it's odd they go from steel to pvc to steel, but they do.
The PVC seems to be only underground though.

[Oren]

On Sat, 13 Aug 2016 16:26:30 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
http://i.cubeupload.com/cMcINF.jpg
I think it's odd they go from steel to pvc to steel, but they do.
The PVC seems to be only underground though.

Prevents corrosion. My water heater changes:

PEX>Copper>Brass>Rubber flex hose>brass>galvanized pipe in the heater.

No "cooties". Can't recall the word. Your exterior pipes have water
minerals Hard water over a couple of decades.

[Bob F]

Post by Danny D.
Good question.
I have no idea.
When I remove the tape, I'll know.
Is that a "special" tape?
It seems like wide printed black electrical tape.

It is Plumber's Tape. Used on underground pipes to wrap joints to avoid
corrosion. The insulation value is very small. If freezing is an issue,
wrap to whole thing with real insulation, covered to avoid water and
critter intrusion. A small amount of water flow occasionally should then
keep it from freezing.

[Danny D.]

Post by Bob F
It is Plumber's Tape. Used on underground pipes to wrap joints to avoid
corrosion. The insulation value is very small. If freezing is an issue,
wrap to whole thing with real insulation, covered to avoid water and
critter intrusion. A small amount of water flow occasionally should then
keep it from freezing.

I have to agree with you, after reading the package at the store for the
10mil black sticky wide pipe tape.

The package says it's for protection from corrosion.
http://i.cubeupload.com/rMhpw7.jpg

Of course, it did nothing for the corrosion on the *inside*!
http://i.cubeupload.com/Wrh9jB.jpg

[Taxed and Spent]

Post by Danny D.

Post by Bob F
It is Plumber's Tape. Used on underground pipes to wrap joints to avoid
corrosion. The insulation value is very small. If freezing is an issue,
wrap to whole thing with real insulation, covered to avoid water and
critter intrusion. A small amount of water flow occasionally should then
keep it from freezing.

I have to agree with you, after reading the package at the store for the
10mil black sticky wide pipe tape.
The package says it's for protection from corrosion.
http://i.cubeupload.com/rMhpw7.jpg
Of course, it did nothing for the corrosion on the *inside*!
http://i.cubeupload.com/Wrh9jB.jpg

that is not all that much corrosion.

[trader_4]

Post by Danny D.
In another thread we discussed a constantly problematic Zurn Wilkins 975XL
1-inch backflow-prevention valve, that doesn't actually do anything (since
it's on top of a hill).
I thought I had fixed the leaking valve - but it started leaking again, so,
I completely give up on fixing that poor design since I've taken it apart a
dozen times and there's nothing I can see that is wrong with it. Yet it
leaks.
And, even if I did fix it, it will invariably leak again soon.
I'm not a plumber, so, my only question is clarification of the two spots
that were suggested to *remove* the valve (and replace with a pipe).
Would you kindly look at this picture and advise me which location is the
removal point? (I'm confused because twisting a pipe in one direction
simply tightens it in the other direction.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/tHjqRh.jpg

What good is wrapping the upright pipes when the whole valve section
is unwrapped? And whatever R value that wrapping has, it doesn't
seem like it could do much.

[Danny D.]

Post by Danny D.
Would you kindly look at this picture and advise me which location is the
removal point? (I'm confused because twisting a pipe in one direction
simply tightens it in the other direction.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/tHjqRh.jpg

Thanks to your helpful advice & suggestions, the deed is done!
Loading Image...

[CRNG]

On Sat, 13 Aug 2016 07:27:56 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Danny D.
Would you kindly look at this picture and advise me which location is the
removal point? (I'm confused because twisting a pipe in one direction
simply tightens it in the other direction.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/tHjqRh.jpg

Thanks to your helpful advice & suggestions, the deed is done!
http://i.cubeupload.com/cMcINF.jpg

Looks good.

[trader_4]

Post by CRNG
On Sat, 13 Aug 2016 07:27:56 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Danny D.
Would you kindly look at this picture and advise me which location is the
removal point? (I'm confused because twisting a pipe in one direction
simply tightens it in the other direction.)
http://i.cubeupload.com/tHjqRh.jpg

Thanks to your helpful advice & suggestions, the deed is done!
http://i.cubeupload.com/cMcINF.jpg

Looks good.
--

+1

One of those guys with his butt crack showing would be proud and
he'd have charged $200+

[Danny D.]

Post by trader_4
One of those guys with his butt crack showing would be proud and
he'd have charged $200+

Thanks for adding me to honorary plumbers-crack membership!

It's a temporary setup (until I look more closely at what's really
disabling the back-pressure valve) - which allows me to analyze the valve
in my own sweet time without being super frustrated by the leaks.

Speaking of leaks, I had expected a leak when I first turned it on, but it
was water tight from the start.

The galvanized pipes are a bit crudded up inside though ...
Loading Image...

[Danny D.]

Post by CRNG

Post by Danny D.

Post by Danny D.
http://i.cubeupload.com/tHjqRh.jpg

Thanks to your helpful advice & suggestions, the deed is done!
http://i.cubeupload.com/cMcINF.jpg

Looks good.

Again, I must thank you kind folks because you give me advice in three
great ways:

1. You tell me exactly *where* to start (e.g., at the yellow connections).
2. You give me ideas for solutions (e.g., the threaded pipe nipple).
3. That gives me the courage to start the job (I analyze more than most
because I'm actually more timid than most of you when initially tackling a
repair job).

Loading Image...

[Oren]

On Sat, 13 Aug 2016 15:20:43 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by CRNG

Post by Danny D.

Post by Danny D.
http://i.cubeupload.com/tHjqRh.jpg

Thanks to your helpful advice & suggestions, the deed is done!
http://i.cubeupload.com/cMcINF.jpg

Looks good.

Again, I must thank you kind folks because you give me advice in three
1. You tell me exactly *where* to start (e.g., at the yellow connections).
2. You give me ideas for solutions (e.g., the threaded pipe nipple).
3. That gives me the courage to start the job (I analyze more than most
because I'm actually more timid than most of you when initially tackling a
repair job).
http://i.cubeupload.com/7s3ouu.jpg

I don't think you are "timid", Danny. Your pencil pushing, bean
counting skills allow you to think critically :-)

Did you turn the two ball valves (test) them? No that it matters so
much with the valve removed.

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren
I don't think you are "timid", Danny. Your pencil pushing, bean
counting skills allow you to think critically :-)

Well, I guess my Aspergers does kick in at times.

Post by Oren
Did you turn the two ball valves (test) them? No that it matters so
much with the valve removed.

Yup. I cleaned the two ball valves out and tried to lubricate them with
pool grease, but the grease didn't really do much to make the downstream
valve easier to turn (or, maybe shoving grease on the inside ball wasn't
the right way to lubricate them?).

Loading Image...

[Oren]

On Sat, 13 Aug 2016 16:05:30 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
Did you turn the two ball valves (test) them? No that it matters so
much with the valve removed.

Yup. I cleaned the two ball valves out and tried to lubricate them with
pool grease, but the grease didn't really do much to make the downstream
valve easier to turn (or, maybe shoving grease on the inside ball wasn't
the right way to lubricate them?).

After you turn the water on, rotate the ball valves open/close a few
times to flush out grit.

Post by Danny D.
http://i.cubeupload.com/rMhpw7.jpg

Looks like a six pack of Fuck blew up! Sorry. ( an inside joke )

[Tekkie®]

Oren posted for all of us...

Post by Oren
On Sat, 13 Aug 2016 16:05:30 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
Did you turn the two ball valves (test) them? No that it matters so
much with the valve removed.

Yup. I cleaned the two ball valves out and tried to lubricate them with
pool grease, but the grease didn't really do much to make the downstream
valve easier to turn (or, maybe shoving grease on the inside ball wasn't
the right way to lubricate them?).

After you turn the water on, rotate the ball valves open/close a few
times to flush out grit.

Post by Danny D.
http://i.cubeupload.com/rMhpw7.jpg

Looks like a six pack of Fuck blew up! Sorry. ( an inside joke )

Don't forget to take your 500 mg dose of Fukitol. I'm up to 1000 mg.

[Bob F]

Post by Danny D.

Post by CRNG

Post by Danny D.

Post by Danny D.
http://i.cubeupload.com/tHjqRh.jpg

Thanks to your helpful advice & suggestions, the deed is done!
http://i.cubeupload.com/cMcINF.jpg

Looks good.

Again, I must thank you kind folks because you give me advice in three
1. You tell me exactly *where* to start (e.g., at the yellow connections).
2. You give me ideas for solutions (e.g., the threaded pipe nipple).
3. That gives me the courage to start the job (I analyze more than most
because I'm actually more timid than most of you when initially tackling a
repair job).
http://i.cubeupload.com/7s3ouu.jpg

The important thing is that you did it. You never learn to fix things
until you start, and the more you do it, the better you will get.

[Danny D.]

Post by Bob F
The important thing is that you did it. You never learn to fix things
until you start, and the more you do it, the better you will get.

I did learn a bit, e.g., I put the teflon pipe dope on the threads but I
didn't bother with the black 10-mil tape, after asking at the hardware
store what it's for.

I also made some unexpected mistakes.

For example, I never could get the downstream pipe joint to open because
the entire assembly kept turning underground instead!

http://i.cubeupload.com/7s3ouu.jpg

[Vic Smith]

On Sat, 13 Aug 2016 16:26:39 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Bob F
The important thing is that you did it. You never learn to fix things
until you start, and the more you do it, the better you will get.

I did learn a bit, e.g., I put the teflon pipe dope on the threads but I
didn't bother with the black 10-mil tape, after asking at the hardware
store what it's for.
I also made some unexpected mistakes.
For example, I never could get the downstream pipe joint to open because
the entire assembly kept turning underground instead!
http://i.cubeupload.com/7s3ouu.jpg

I always use 2 pipe wrenches when working pipes. Not doing so is why
novices cause more leaks than they fix.

[Bob F]

Post by Vic Smith
On Sat, 13 Aug 2016 16:26:39 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Bob F
The important thing is that you did it. You never learn to fix things
until you start, and the more you do it, the better you will get.

I did learn a bit, e.g., I put the teflon pipe dope on the threads but I
didn't bother with the black 10-mil tape, after asking at the hardware
store what it's for.
I also made some unexpected mistakes.
For example, I never could get the downstream pipe joint to open because
the entire assembly kept turning underground instead!
http://i.cubeupload.com/7s3ouu.jpg

I always use 2 pipe wrenches when working pipes. Not doing so is why
novices cause more leaks than they fix.

Right. A wrench on the big coupler nut, and another on the part the big
nut screws onto.

[Danny D.]

Post by Vic Smith
I always use 2 pipe wrenches when working pipes. Not doing so is why
novices cause more leaks than they fix.

< embarrassed > I didn't think of that.
Yes. It probably would have allowed me to crack the nut.

In fact, in further hindsight, I could have cracked one pipe-union nut
first, and then, before disconnecting it, cracked the other.

Then I could have done it with the one pipe wrench that I used.
(I have more pipe wrenches - I just didn't lug them up the hill.)

[Vic Smith]

On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 00:57:56 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Vic Smith
I always use 2 pipe wrenches when working pipes. Not doing so is why
novices cause more leaks than they fix.

< embarrassed > I didn't think of that.
Yes. It probably would have allowed me to crack the nut.
In fact, in further hindsight, I could have cracked one pipe-union nut
first, and then, before disconnecting it, cracked the other.
Then I could have done it with the one pipe wrench that I used.
(I have more pipe wrenches - I just didn't lug them up the hill.)

What, are you saying there's a way out of using 2 wrenches?
Then you're not paying attention.
Always use 2 pipe wrenches, even on unions.
Believe it or not, an over-tightened or frozen union nut can resist
turning enough to where fittings on either side both tighten and
loosen. And not necessarily the first fitting from the union.
It's happened to me more than once, though it didn't matter because I
was junking the old pipe.
This advice doesn't matter much, since hardly any DIYer encounters
steel pipe anymore.

[Danny D.]

Post by Vic Smith
What, are you saying there's a way out of using 2 wrenches?

Um... that's what I "was" saying.
Until I read the rest of the post below.

Post by Vic Smith
Then you're not paying attention.

I apologize.
I had not realized you would have used two pipe wrenches even if there were
only a single union. Now I understand. I had not understood that before.
My mistake.

Post by Vic Smith
Always use 2 pipe wrenches, even on unions.

I see. It does make sense.
Thank you for having the patience to clarify.

Post by Vic Smith
Believe it or not, an over-tightened or frozen union nut can resist
turning enough to where fittings on either side both tighten and
loosen. And not necessarily the first fitting from the union.

That makes sense.

Post by Vic Smith
It's happened to me more than once, though it didn't matter because I
was junking the old pipe.

Yeah. Disassembly to take stuff apart that will never go back together is
always easier than any other job!

Post by Vic Smith
This advice doesn't matter much, since hardly any DIYer encounters
steel pipe anymore.

I think most of my house is copper, but the outside seems to be galvanized,
and my sister's house, which I also maintain, is all galvanized from the
sixties. Those pipes have nodules of stuff inside whenever I replace them.