Old wire thicker than new wire?

[Nexus7]

I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

[Bob]

Gauge is actually a measurement of thickness, just like inches and feet are
a measurement of length. I don't think it has ever changed. Did you put a
gauge measuring tool on both?

Post by Nexus7
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

[Nexus7]

Post by Bob
Gauge is actually a measurement of thickness, just like inches and feet are
a measurement of length. I don't think it has ever changed. Did you put a
gauge measuring tool on both?

It appears markedly thicker visually, but I'll use a vernier this
evening. I just thought they might be selling thinner wire rated for
the same capacity, kinda like they sell something 1.5X3.5 and call it a
2X4.

[Doug Kanter]

Post by Nexus7
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram it
behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure you want
it running EVERYWHERE in the house?

[h***@aol.com]

cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder
why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot.

its likely the same conductor size but old wire used real rubber
coverings, that were thicker. that may explain the confusion

[Doug Kanter]

Post by h***@aol.com
cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder
why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot.

Smaller boxes are harder to work in. More difficult = more manly man, or
some such bullshit. That's the only reason I can figure out. Code dictates
that as you run wires along beams, you don't bend them more than a certain
amount. Keep the bends gradual. Then, code says it's OK to jam the wires
into boxes in a way that doesn't match the previous rule.

[mm]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:36:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

Post by Doug Kanter

Post by h***@aol.com
cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder
why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot.

Smaller boxes are harder to work in. More difficult = more manly man, or
some such bullshit. That's the only reason I can figure out. Code dictates
that as you run wires along beams, you don't bend them more than a certain
amount. Keep the bends gradual. Then, code says it's OK to jam the wires
into boxes in a way that doesn't match the previous rule.

ONe is not supposed to make sharp turns in cable tv coax either**, but
then the cable folded the cable twice and stuffed it in that little
box outside my house. It annoyed me.

**That because the insulation between the center wire and the braid
can be compressed, and the distance between the two becomes less, and
that can cause signal reflections and ghosts in the picture. I think
the picture was good though. I'm not too picky. :)

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

[m***@UNLISTED.com]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:36:32 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

Post by Doug Kanter

Post by h***@aol.com
cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder
why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot.

Smaller boxes are harder to work in. More difficult = more manly man, or

That leaves Michael Jackson out of the picture :)

Post by Doug Kanter
some such bullshit. That's the only reason I can figure out. Code dictates
that as you run wires along beams, you don't bend them more than a certain
amount. Keep the bends gradual. Then, code says it's OK to jam the wires
into boxes in a way that doesn't match the previous rule.

[Bud--]

Post by h***@aol.com
cant go wrong running 12 gauge, but it is hared to work with. I wonder
why they dont make boxes bigger, that would help a lot.

They do make bigger boxes; why don't you use them. You can put a lot of
wires in a square box with a mud ring. There is a NEC requirement on the
minimum size of box used based on what is in it.

bud--

[s***@gmail.com]

"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "

It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.

[Doug Kanter]

Post by s***@gmail.com
"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "
It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.

Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed.

[Doug Miller]

Post by Doug Kanter
Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed.

That's what's typically run inside conduit.

[Jay Stootzmann]

Stranded is not code [NEC]. A good home inspector should catch it and
required it's replacement before getting an occupancy permit.

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Doug Kanter
Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed.

That's what's typically run inside conduit.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

[g***@aol.com]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:55:16 GMT, "Jay Stootzmann"

Post by Jay Stootzmann
Stranded is not code [NEC]. A good home inspector should catch it and
required it's replacement before getting an occupancy permit.

Cite that.

[bill allemann]

I don't know for sure, but they might be mixing up some issues about the
type of cable sheathing.
If stranded THHN, etc was in conduit, I can't see how it wouldn't be
approved.

Bill

Post by g***@aol.com
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:55:16 GMT, "Jay Stootzmann"

Post by Jay Stootzmann
Stranded is not code [NEC]. A good home inspector should catch it and
required it's replacement before getting an occupancy permit.

Cite that.

[m***@UNLISTED.com]

Post by g***@aol.com
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:55:16 GMT, "Jay Stootzmann"

Post by Jay Stootzmann
Stranded is not code [NEC]. A good home inspector should catch it and
required it's replacement before getting an occupancy permit.

Cite that.

Yes, please.....
Stranded has been used in conduit for years. Unless this changed
recently, this is not correct....

[BobK207]

Post by Jay Stootzmann
Stranded is not code [NEC]. A good home inspector should catch it and
required it's replacement before getting an occupancy permit.

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Doug Kanter
Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed.

That's what's typically run inside conduit.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Post by Doug Kanter

Post by Jay Stootzmann
Stranded is not code [NEC]. A good home inspector should catch it and

required it's replacement before getting an occupancy permit.<<<<<<

Really? Why would stranded THHN/THWN be prohibited in residential
work?


cheers
Bob

[Larry Fishel]

Post by Jay Stootzmann
Stranded is not code [NEC]. A good home inspector should catch it and

required it's replacement before getting an occupancy permit.

Can you cite where the NEC says this? I'm pretty new to this, so I
might be missing something, but I can find nothing.

A quick web serch leads me to believe that this is common enough
practice that it hardly warrants mention. The closest question that
comes up is whether it's OK to connect stranded wire directly to the
screw terminals on outlets. The nearly unanimous answer is that it is
code as long as the outlet is listed for it. All this discussion would
seem pretty pointless if you're not allowed to run stranded wire at
all...

Just for laughs I looked up the UL info on the outlets I've been using,
and the only thing it bothers to specify is that you MUST use 14 awg
solid for the slide in connectors on the back. For the screw termianls
it just says "up to No. 12 copper or copper clad wire"...

The closest thing I can find in the NEC is that 8 awg and LARGER run
through a conduit MUST be stranded. This does not imply the
contrapositive...

[Doug Kanter]

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Doug Kanter
Stranded wire for house wiring? I didn't know that existed.

That's what's typically run inside conduit.

Conduit? Hard pipe conduit? Or, other?

[c***@hotmail.com]

You can buy stranded wire in a cable form...I dont know the
designation...I just call it "cable tray wire". Its used a lot in
industrial plants where the vast majority of wiring is run in large
cable trays...the cables are then dropped off the tray at the machine
or appliance it is serving. Its probably expensive though and I dont
know what the code says about running it in concealed places...but I
know the sheath is probably just as durable as the outer sheath on
romex.

Use crimp on ring or fork terminals for stranded.

I dont have any problem with 14 gauge wire....the problem is fat lazy
americans and their power strips.....trying to run a 30 amp load on a
15 amp circuit....of course people are just ignorant...and electrical
supplies are available to anyone old enough to pick it off the shelf.

[Mark Lloyd]

Post by s***@gmail.com
"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "
It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.

How about when trying to get it around screw terminals?

[Bud--]

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by s***@gmail.com
"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "
It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.

How about when trying to get it around screw terminals?

I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while
and didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I
break the wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works
good except behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid.
Poke in connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought
stranded couldn't be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could.

bud--

[Doug Kanter]

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by s***@gmail.com
"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "
It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.

How about when trying to get it around screw terminals?

I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while and
didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I break the
wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works good except
behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid. Poke in
connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought stranded couldn't
be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could.
bud--

It's even more of a joke to use stranded with wire nuts. But, people do it.

[Ralph Mowery]

Post by Doug Kanter
It's even more of a joke to use stranded with wire nuts. But, people do it.

What is it on this user group about wire nuts. I work in a plant and it is
hard telling how many thousand connections are made with wire nuts. I would
guess it has to be around 100,000 or more. Everything from some low level
signal wires up to some 10 HP 480 volt 3 phase motors. Most all the wire is
stranded. If they are put on correctly we have almost no problems with
them. I don't usually use any tape on them except for some motors that seem
to shake and viberate alot. The tape is not so much for the wire nuts
themselves, but a few have rubbed through the insulation of the wire nuts so
much of the tape is just around the thin covering on some of the wire nuts.
The ones we use do not require any twisting. Just cut the insulation to the
proper length for the wirenut and put the ends together. Then let the
turning of the wire nut take care of things.

[Doug Kanter]

Post by Ralph Mowery

Post by Doug Kanter
It's even more of a joke to use stranded with wire nuts. But, people do

it.
What is it on this user group about wire nuts. I work in a plant and it is
hard telling how many thousand connections are made with wire nuts. I would
guess it has to be around 100,000 or more. Everything from some low level
signal wires up to some 10 HP 480 volt 3 phase motors. Most all the wire is
stranded. If they are put on correctly we have almost no problems with
them. I don't usually use any tape on them except for some motors that seem
to shake and viberate alot. The tape is not so much for the wire nuts
themselves, but a few have rubbed through the insulation of the wire nuts so
much of the tape is just around the thin covering on some of the wire nuts.
The ones we use do not require any twisting. Just cut the insulation to the
proper length for the wirenut and put the ends together. Then let the
turning of the wire nut take care of things.

I use them when appropriate, but I've seen them fail (as you probably have).
There are boxes which you cannot change unless you want to rip it out and
replace with a bigger one. If the box is too small and the existing wire is
crowded, wire nuts make me nervous. I'll use crimps, as long as there's
enough wire to work with in case the crimp has to be cut off at a later
date. For new work, I always install an oversized box so there's enough room
to use wire nuts correctly.

[Mark Lloyd]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:16:11 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

Post by Doug Kanter

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by s***@gmail.com
"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "
It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.

How about when trying to get it around screw terminals?

I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while and
didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I break the
wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works good except
behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid. Poke in
connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought stranded couldn't
be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could.
bud--

It's even more of a joke to use stranded with wire nuts. But, people do it.

It would take a few tries to get it tight.

[g***@aol.com]

Post by Bud--
I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while
and didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I
break the wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works
good except behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid.
Poke in connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought
stranded couldn't be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could.
bud--

If you look at commercial installations youy will seldom see anything
but stranded THHN. It works just fine on screw terminals and wirenuts.
They are both listed for stranded wire. Maybe homeowner/electricians
are just not up to the task ;-)

Seroiusly, if you twist the wire tightly it will be fine. Some old
timers say twist it backward from the way it is made. That does seem
to work.

[Bud--]

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Bud--
I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while
and didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I
break the wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works
good except behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid.
Poke in connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought
stranded couldn't be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could.
bud--

If you look at commercial installations youy will seldom see anything
but stranded THHN. It works just fine on screw terminals and wirenuts.
They are both listed for stranded wire. Maybe homeowner/electricians
are just not up to the task ;-)
Seroiusly, if you twist the wire tightly it will be fine. Some old
timers say twist it backward from the way it is made. That does seem
to work.

Yea, I havn't had problems with tightly twisted stranded on hot and
neutral. I'm not real happy with the ground because the screws don't
have adjacent barriers to prevent the wire from spreading/coming out
like the hot and neutral do. Backwards is an interesting idea.
You have to be more careful using wirenuts on stranded but made right
they are reliable.

bud--

[Doug Kanter]

Post by Bud--

Post by g***@aol.com

I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while and
didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I break the
wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works good except
behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid. Poke in
connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought stranded
couldn't be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could.
bud--

If you look at commercial installations youy will seldom see anything
but stranded THHN. It works just fine on screw terminals and wirenuts.
They are both listed for stranded wire. Maybe homeowner/electricians
are just not up to the task ;-)
Seroiusly, if you twist the wire tightly it will be fine. Some old
timers say twist it backward from the way it is made. That does seem
to work.

Yea, I havn't had problems with tightly twisted stranded on hot and
neutral. I'm not real happy with the ground because the screws don't have
adjacent barriers to prevent the wire from spreading/coming out like the
hot and neutral do. Backwards is an interesting idea.
You have to be more careful using wirenuts on stranded but made right they
are reliable.
bud--

There are always crimp terminals, if done right.

[Mark Lloyd]

Post by Bud--

Post by Mark Lloyd

Post by s***@gmail.com
"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "
It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.

How about when trying to get it around screw terminals?

I thought stranded couldn't be used under screws but I looked a while
and didn't find a restriction. It is definitely can be a problem. I
break the wire into 2 sets of strands and twist them tightly - works
good except behind device grounding screws. Can always pigtail to solid.
Poke in connections tightened by screw work good. I also thought
stranded couldn't be used with back-stab connections but in 1991 it could.
bud--

I has a few stranded wires to connect to screws (on a standard
receptacle) before Christmas. I used a short piece of solid wire on
the screw and wirenutted to the stranded.

[m***@UNLISTED.com]

Post by s***@gmail.com
"12 gauge can be a bitch to work with, especially when you need to cram
it behind the switches in boxes that aren't big enough. Are you sure
you want it running EVERYWHERE in the house? "
It's not a bitch to work with if you use stranded wire.

It's not a bitch to work with the soild #12 wire either after doing it
for years and years....

Always pre-start the bends before cramming the wores in the box. Just
cramming makes the job tough and is more likely to develop a short or
broken wire.

Want a challenge, try using #10 wire in a standard box with an outlet
or switch. When I used to work for electricians, I once ran into a
house that someone had used a whole bunch of #10 for 15 and 20A
circuits. It was definately a low loss, and would never overheat, but
working with it was a nightmare.

[Greg G]

Post by Nexus7
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

Maybe the "thicker" 14 ga. is stranded, and the thinner 12 ga. is
solid?

Greg Guarino

[B***@gmail.com]

All romex (nm) and armored cable is solid. I have NEVER seen any
type of
stranded permanent electric wire used in a house.

I did also notice that it appears older wire was thicker than todays
comparible cable.

As for 12 guage being a pain in the ass to work with??? Bah! you'll
get used to it, just like anything else. I rather have the higher
compacity cable in the walls just in case I want to go 20 amp
rather then having to rewire when all the walls are up.

Tom

[volts500]

Post by B***@gmail.com
All romex (nm) and armored cable is solid. I have NEVER seen any
type of
stranded permanent electric wire used in a house.
I did also notice that it appears older wire was thicker than todays
comparible cable.
As for 12 guage being a pain in the ass to work with??? Bah! you'll
get used to it, just like anything else. I rather have the higher
compacity cable in the walls just in case I want to go 20 amp
rather then having to rewire when all the walls are up.
Tom

Yeah, try some 500 MCM copper if ya wanna wrestle some bear.

[Rev]

1000 MCM 15KV shielded Triplex in cold weather ;

[Greg G]

Post by B***@gmail.com
All romex (nm) and armored cable is solid. I have NEVER seen any
type of
stranded permanent electric wire used in a house.

There's plenty of THHN 12 ga. stranded in my house. Some people
complain that HD doesn't sell THHN solid anymore, This may have
recently changed, but in NY City all the wiring in your house had to
be armored cable (in walls) or in conduit (exposed). The stuff that's
in conduit in my house is largely stranded. It's easier to pull
through the conduit. It seems to be powering this computer very
nicely. :)

Post by B***@gmail.com
I did also notice that it appears older wire was thicker than todays
comparible cable.
As for 12 guage being a pain in the ass to work with??? Bah! you'll
get used to it, just like anything else. I rather have the higher
compacity cable in the walls just in case I want to go 20 amp
rather then having to rewire when all the walls are up.

I agree. I never use 14 for anything.

Greg

[s***@gmail.com]

If I had to guess as to why older wire is thicker than new wire with
the same gauge rating it might be more of a quality control issue than
anything else. I bet the manufacturing process today is more accurate.

[Doug Kanter]

Post by s***@gmail.com
If I had to guess as to why older wire is thicker than new wire with
the same gauge rating it might be more of a quality control issue than
anything else. I bet the manufacturing process today is more accurate.

Today's process probably HAS to be more accurate. Heard a science thing last
week on the radio. In this country, there is now more copper installed in
houses than there is in the ground.

[George E. Cawthon]

Post by Doug Kanter

Post by s***@gmail.com
If I had to guess as to why older wire is thicker than new wire with
the same gauge rating it might be more of a quality control issue than
anything else. I bet the manufacturing process today is more accurate.

Today's process probably HAS to be more accurate. Heard a science thing last
week on the radio. In this country, there is now more copper installed in
houses than there is in the ground.

Yeah, and back in the early 70's, there was a wide
spread claim that all of the U.S. copper mines
would be mined out in 20 years.

[Kyle]

Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It’s all stranded and in conduit throughout the entire hous

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Kyle
Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It’s all stranded and in conduit
throughout the entire house

Is it still that way? I'd have thought they would have changed, at
least for new construction.

[trader_4]

Post by Kyle
Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It’s all stranded and in conduit
throughout the entire house

Is it still that way? I'd have thought they would have changed, at
least for new construction.

Unions.

[Scott Lurndal]

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 11:21:43=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote=

On 3/14/2023 11:01 PM, Kyle wrote:=20

Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It=E2=80=99s all stranded and in con=

duit=20

throughout the entire house=20

Is it still that way? I'd have thought they would have changed, at=20
least for new construction.

Unions.

Perhaps, or far more likely:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Scott Lurndal

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 11:21:43=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote=

On 3/14/2023 11:01 PM, Kyle wrote:=20

Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It=E2=80=99s all stranded and in con=

duit=20

throughout the entire house=20

Is it still that way? I'd have thought they would have changed, at=20
least for new construction.

Unions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

I imagine that was justification for the original rule but a hundred
years later, romex has not been the big problem

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Scott Lurndal

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 11:21:43=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote=

On 3/14/2023 11:01 PM, Kyle wrote:=20

Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It=E2=80=99s all stranded and in con=

duit=20

throughout the entire house=20

Is it still that way? I'd have thought they would have changed, at=20
least for new construction.

Unions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

I imagine that was justification for the original rule but a hundred
years later, romex has not been the big problem

Romex has a number of issues, particuarly when installed by amateurs.

In a very dense city like Chicago (or Manhatten), it makes sense to have
strict fire safety requirements for electrical work, given the potential for
disaster.

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Scott Lurndal

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 11:21:43=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote=

On 3/14/2023 11:01 PM, Kyle wrote:=20

Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It=E2=80=99s all stranded and in con=

duit=20

throughout the entire house=20

Is it still that way? I'd have thought they would have changed, at=20
least for new construction.

Unions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

I imagine that was justification for the original rule but a hundred
years later, romex has not been the big problem

Romex has a number of issues, particuarly when installed by amateurs.
In a very dense city like Chicago (or Manhatten), it makes sense to have
strict fire safety requirements for electrical work, given the potential for
disaster.

It'sa lot easier to screw up with stranded thhn than with romex

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Scott Lurndal

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 11:21:43=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote=

On 3/14/2023 11:01 PM, Kyle wrote:=20

Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It=E2=80=99s all stranded and in con=

duit=20

throughout the entire house=20

Is it still that way? I'd have thought they would have changed, at=20
least for new construction.

Unions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

I imagine that was justification for the original rule but a hundred
years later, romex has not been the big problem

Romex has a number of issues, particuarly when installed by amateurs.
In a very dense city like Chicago (or Manhatten), it makes sense to have
strict fire safety requirements for electrical work, given the potential for
disaster.

It'sa lot easier to screw up with stranded thhn than with romex

I found this and it makes some sense in the city.

Why is Romex illegal in Chicago?
The change was pushed by the county's Building Department. Staffers
there said house wiring known by the brand name Romex can be dangerous
if the insulation is gnawed by rodents or punctured by nails.

[Clare Snyder]

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Scott Lurndal

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 11:21:43=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote=

On 3/14/2023 11:01 PM, Kyle wrote:=20

Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It=E2=80=99s all stranded and in con=

duit=20

throughout the entire house=20

Is it still that way? I'd have thought they would have changed, at=20
least for new construction.

Unions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

I imagine that was justification for the original rule but a hundred
years later, romex has not been the big problem

Romex has a number of issues, particuarly when installed by amateurs.
In a very dense city like Chicago (or Manhatten), it makes sense to have
strict fire safety requirements for electrical work, given the potential for
disaster.

It'sa lot easier to screw up with stranded thhn than with romex

I found this and it makes some sense in the city.
Why is Romex illegal in Chicago?
The change was pushed by the county's Building Department. Staffers
there said house wiring known by the brand name Romex can be dangerous
if the insulation is gnawed by rodents or punctured by nails.

The rats makes sense.

[Dean Hoffman]

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Scott Lurndal

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 11:21:43=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote=

On 3/14/2023 11:01 PM, Kyle wrote:=20

Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It=E2=80=99s all stranded and in con=

duit=20

throughout the entire house=20

Is it still that way? I'd have thought they would have changed, at=20
least for new construction.

Unions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

I imagine that was justification for the original rule but a hundred
years later, romex has not been the big problem

Romex has a number of issues, particuarly when installed by amateurs.
In a very dense city like Chicago (or Manhatten), it makes sense to have
strict fire safety requirements for electrical work, given the potential for
disaster.

It'sa lot easier to screw up with stranded thhn than with romex

I found this and it makes some sense in the city.
Why is Romex illegal in Chicago?
The change was pushed by the county's Building Department. Staffers
there said house wiring known by the brand name Romex can be dangerous
if the insulation is gnawed by rodents or punctured by nails.

The rats makes sense.

Yes, but. What's special about Chicago compared to other cities?

[trader_4]

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Clare Snyder

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Scott Lurndal

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 11:21:43=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote=

On 3/14/2023 11:01 PM, Kyle wrote:=20

Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It=E2=80=99s all stranded and in con=

duit=20

throughout the entire house=20

Is it still that way? I'd have thought they would have changed, at=20
least for new construction.

Unions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

I imagine that was justification for the original rule but a hundred
years later, romex has not been the big problem

Romex has a number of issues, particuarly when installed by amateurs.
In a very dense city like Chicago (or Manhatten), it makes sense to have
strict fire safety requirements for electrical work, given the potential for
disaster.

It'sa lot easier to screw up with stranded thhn than with romex

I found this and it makes some sense in the city.
Why is Romex illegal in Chicago?
The change was pushed by the county's Building Department. Staffers
there said house wiring known by the brand name Romex can be dangerous
if the insulation is gnawed by rodents or punctured by nails.

The rats makes sense.

Yes, but. What's special about Chicago compared to other cities?

Union rats

Those union rats must chew up AFCIs too. They are now part of code and if
a wire is chewed they should kick off before any arcing can start a fire, which
would mean Romex should be OK today.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Scott Lurndal

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 11:21:43=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote=

On 3/14/2023 11:01 PM, Kyle wrote:=20

Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It=E2=80=99s all stranded and in con=

duit=20

throughout the entire house=20

Is it still that way? I'd have thought they would have changed, at=20
least for new construction.

Unions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

I imagine that was justification for the original rule but a hundred
years later, romex has not been the big problem

[bud--]

Post by Kyle
Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It’s all stranded and in conduit
throughout the entire house

A 17 year old thread with a few 5 year old posts, then this one.

A couple posts said #12 wire is smaller now.

And "Stranded is not code [NEC]"

(Both debunked)

This is probably a reply with the usual homemoanerhub quality and
doesn't add anything.
haha

[hah]

Post by bud--

Post by Kyle
Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It’s all stranded and in conduit
throughout the entire house

A 17 year old thread with a few 5 year old posts, then this one.
A couple posts said #12 wire is smaller now.

That's some strange wire. It shrinks while staying the same size.

[snip]

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by hah

Post by bud--

Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It’s all stranded and in conduit
throughout the entire house

A 17 year old thread with a few 5 year old posts, then this one.
A couple posts said #12 wire is smaller now.

That's some strange wire. It shrinks while staying the same size.

The diameter of the metallic wire has not changed. The diameter of
the thermoplastic insulation has been reduced.

[Bob F]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by hah

Post by bud--

Post by Kyle
Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It’s all stranded and in conduit
throughout the entire house

A 17 year old thread with a few 5 year old posts, then this one.
A couple posts said #12 wire is smaller now.

That's some strange wire. It shrinks while staying the same size.

The diameter of the metallic wire has not changed. The diameter of
the thermoplastic insulation has been reduced.

How many times does this discussion have to be repeated here?

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 17 Mar 2023 13:02:21 -0700, Bob F

Post by Bob F

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by hah

Post by bud--

Never lived in Chicago then, haha. It’s all stranded and in conduit
throughout the entire house

A 17 year old thread with a few 5 year old posts, then this one.
A couple posts said #12 wire is smaller now.

That's some strange wire. It shrinks while staying the same size.

The diameter of the metallic wire has not changed. The diameter of
the thermoplastic insulation has been reduced.

How many times does this discussion have to be repeated here?

Four more.

Every 2 years for 8 more years.

[Jeff Wisnia]

Post by Nexus7
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

I believe that there was some copper clad aluminum wire used for house
wiring a while ago.

Aluminum has only about 70 percent of the conductivity of copper. If
what you found is copper clad aluminum then it makes sense that it's a
bit larger in diameter, but marked 14 gauge because it has the same
current carrying capacity as 14 gauge solid copper wire. Try filing on
the wire and see if you get down to aluminum.

If that's not it, then I'm gonna make a WAG that if your vernier shows
the older copper is in fact solid copper and of a larger diameter, the
difference may be because the newer insulation materials can withstand a
bit more heat than the older stuff could. So, they can dissipate a few
more watts in resistive losses without danger of the insulation going up
in smoke or falling off. But that's a verrrrry WAG I theenk.

Jeff



Jeff

[g***@aol.com]

Post by Nexus7
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

Old Romex Type NM used type TW conductors. New Romex Type NM-B uses
THHN conductors. The insulation is thinner but the conductor <metal>
itself is the same size.

[SQLit]

Post by Nexus7
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

I have been in the "trade" for 35 years, American Wire Gauge has not changed
it that time. 12 is 12 and 14 is 14. What has changed in romex is that
some manufactures A LONG TIME AGO made romex with 12 or 14 conductors and a
reduced ground ~16awg. These cables were produced before I started buying
wire.

[Rusht Limpalless]

Guages of wire, like same of metal, do not change, they are standards.
The use of #12 Cu wire is prohibited under the Ont electrical code due to
the added stresses the thicker wire places on the terminals and screws of
the outlets.
Prob the same where you live. This is one instance where overdoing is
underdoing with a result in No Insurance Coverage.
When #12 or #10 is used on a branch circuit, the device must be rated
commercial and applicable for the wire used.

Post by SQLit

Post by Nexus7
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

I have been in the "trade" for 35 years, American Wire Gauge has not changed
it that time. 12 is 12 and 14 is 14. What has changed in romex is that
some manufactures A LONG TIME AGO made romex with 12 or 14 conductors and a
reduced ground ~16awg. These cables were produced before I started buying
wire.

[Toller]

Post by Rusht Limpalless
The use of #12 Cu wire is prohibited under the Ont electrical code due to
the added stresses the thicker wire places on the terminals and screws of
the outlets.

Exactly how does it stress the "screws of the outlets"?

Can you actually cite a reference?

[George E. Cawthon]

Post by Nexus7
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

The responses to your question include a lot of
nonsense and extraneous discussion. The answer is
that wire gauges are the same, unless you go back
a long way. Like someone said, put a gauge on
both wires. It could be that one of the wires is
labeled wrong. The gauge will tell the story.

[m***@UNLISTED.com]

Post by Nexus7
I've come across some wire that is probably 30 years old and is marked
14 gauge. The minimum gauge I want snaking around the house is 12
gauge, so I was about to pull it out when I noticed that the copper is
about as thick as new 12 gauge (and thicker than new 14 gauge). Is the
copper thinner now because of improvements in the manufacturing
process, or something? Is the wire rated by thickness or by current
carrying capacity? If it is current carrying capacity, then are they
using thinner wire because newer copper is a better conductor? This
isn't the plastic insulation I'm talking about, it's about the copper
itself.

I'm still waiting for some measurements. It's amazing how these
threads get lost in other discussions....

I always think the newer wire is thinner too, but legally is should be
the same.

[d57tbird]

replying to Nexus7, d57tbird wrote:
Old 14 gauge strips with a 12 gauge notch on my wire stripper. the newest
batch of 14 gauge is too thin to strip well with my stripper. Visually, the
old 12 gauge is like modern 10, old 14 is like modern 12. As the price of
copper goes up, the wire gets thinner. It seems like it may be a more brittle
or stiffer alloy in the modern wire. Not sure if the alloy allows more current
or if we are being cheated.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/old-wire-thicker-than-new-wire-84490-.htm

[g***@aol.com]

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 21:14:01 GMT, d57tbird

Post by d57tbird
Old 14 gauge strips with a 12 gauge notch on my wire stripper. the newest
batch of 14 gauge is too thin to strip well with my stripper. Visually, the
old 12 gauge is like modern 10, old 14 is like modern 12. As the price of
copper goes up, the wire gets thinner. It seems like it may be a more brittle
or stiffer alloy in the modern wire. Not sure if the alloy allows more current
or if we are being cheated.

The insulation on old type TW wire was thicker than THHN but the wire
is the same.

[c***@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 21:14:01 GMT, d57tbird

Post by d57tbird
Old 14 gauge strips with a 12 gauge notch on my wire stripper. the newest
batch of 14 gauge is too thin to strip well with my stripper. Visually, the
old 12 gauge is like modern 10, old 14 is like modern 12. As the price of
copper goes up, the wire gets thinner. It seems like it may be a more brittle
or stiffer alloy in the modern wire. Not sure if the alloy allows more current
or if we are being cheated.

The wire itself is the same size. The insulation is significantly
thinner. The wire HAS to be the same size unless it is counterfit
Chinese crap.