Experiment removing brown toilet bowl stains with various acids

[Danny D.]

In another thread, it was determined that porcelain toilet
bowls were impervious to commonly available acids such as
phosphoric (Naval Jelly) & hydrochloric (pool muriatic acid).

So, I'll run an experiment to see which will remove the
brown stains best without destroying the porcelain or tile.

Here is a picture of the brown toilet bowl stains, after
scrubbing and household bleach - but before the first treatment:
Loading Image...

Here are the next three planned treatments:
Loading Image...

1. Pool bleach (12%)
2. Pool acid (28%)
3. Naval jelly

Let me know if you have any suggestions before I conduct the
experiment.

[Oren]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 21:25:27 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
In another thread, it was determined that porcelain toilet
bowls were impervious to commonly available acids such as
phosphoric (Naval Jelly) & hydrochloric (pool muriatic acid).
So, I'll run an experiment to see which will remove the
brown stains best without destroying the porcelain or tile.
Here is a picture of the brown toilet bowl stains, after
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667260/img/12667260.jpg
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667287/img/12667287.jpg
1. Pool bleach (12%)
2. Pool acid (28%)
3. Naval jelly
Let me know if you have any suggestions before I conduct the
experiment.

See my comment to you in the other thread. Much of that stain is slime
coming from the bowl passage and rim jets... BTDT (pool acid)

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren
See my comment to you in the other thread. Much of that stain is slime
coming from the bowl passage and rim jets... BTDT (pool acid

The most dangerous is the pool acid, so, I'll do that last.

Here's what I just did:
1. I shut the water supply off and flushed the toilet
2. I plunged & cupped & toweled out the remaining water
3. As a control, I blocked half the toilet with a bath towel
3. Naval Jelly (because it's sticky) went on first
Loading Image...

This is my sister's kid's bathroom, so, while I was there,
I decided to apply the excess naval jelly to the yucky sink:
Loading Image...

I'll wait a half hour - and then wash it off, and report back.

PS: How her kids make 'that' much mess of a sink just brushing
their teeth is beyond me!

[Oren]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:22:09 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
See my comment to you in the other thread. Much of that stain is slime
coming from the bowl passage and rim jets... BTDT (pool acid

The most dangerous is the pool acid, so, I'll do that last.

The ball is in your court. Take as much time and expense as you need.

Post by Danny D.
1. I shut the water supply off and flushed the toilet
2. I plunged & cupped & toweled out the remaining water

Sacrificial turkey baster to remove water below the bottom throat jet
in the bowl bottom. Add pool acid above that jet. Good. Use the pool
acid to clean it to dissolve minerals for a better flush.

Post by Danny D.
3. As a control, I blocked half the toilet with a bath towel

... bean counters. I provided a link (other thread) to be done in
short order.
.

Post by Danny D.
3. Naval Jelly (because it's sticky) went on first
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667774/img/12667774.jpg

Until you use muriatic acid in the bowl passage / jets, minerals and
slime will still cause stains in the bowl and come back sooner.
Minerals in the passage build up and prevent a good flow of water in
the jets.

What looks red like rust is cooties and not rust. Unless you have
heavy iron in the water.

Post by Danny D.
This is my sister's kid's bathroom, so, while I was there,
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667775/img/12667775.jpg
I'll wait a half hour - and then wash it off, and report back.

IMHO a poor use of Loctite naval jelly.

Post by Danny D.
PS: How her kids make 'that' much mess of a sink just brushing
their teeth is beyond me!

Somebody created a monster? <grin>

The link again, skip to - Muriatic Acid Method.

< http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-a-Slow-Toilet>

Neutralize with baking soda on septic systems and iron sewer drain
pipes before you flush.

Bowl passage jets are often "tear drop" shape. This creates the
vortex in the bowl for a better flush, when cleared of minerals and
cooties. The bottom jet starts the siphon action on flushing.

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren
IMHO a poor use of Loctite naval jelly.

In retrospect, I agree.

1. I left the naval jelly on the toilet bowl for an hour:
Loading Image...

2. The towel maintained the right side as an experimental control:
Loading Image...

3. The results, after only flushing (no scrubbing), were not stellar:
Loading Image...

With my fingernail, I scraped along the area cleaned by the
phosphoric acid, and it felt rough, with pieces of loosened deposits
flaking off, so, perhaps with more time, the naval jelly "might" have
worked; but it's time to move on to the pièce de résistance, which
is the 28% hydrochloric acid & baking soda experiment.

I'm reading up on Oren's suggested reference now & will report back:
http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-a-Slow-Toilet

[Oren]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 01:48:03 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667876/img/12667876.jpg

Because the bowl rim is full of cooties (red stuff). I don't know the
name for it other than that. It comes from the jets in the bowl rim. A
place that cannot be cleaned by conventional means. This causes the
vertical stains in the bowl - note they are more pronounced at the
top.

Post by Danny D.
With my fingernail, I scraped along the area cleaned by the
phosphoric acid, and it felt rough, with pieces of loosened deposits
flaking off, so, perhaps with more time, the naval jelly "might" have
worked; but it's time to move on to the pièce de résistance, which
is the 28% hydrochloric acid & baking soda experiment.
http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-a-Slow-Toilet

If you follow the directions you will be safe (I skip a step about the
clear cover wrap over the bowl).

You will also see water in the bowl turn red from what washed out of
the bowl rim.

Local water here is heavy in calcium. If you have the same, before
you try - pour a half cup of pool acid in the bowl - it will fizzle.
You then know it is working on the minerals.

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren
pour a half cup of pool acid in the bowl - it will fizzle.
You then know it is working on the minerals.

Oh, it fizzled allriht! :)

I gathered the materials listed in Oren's instructions:
Loading Image...

I was going to use a protective facemask ... but they suck:
Loading Image...

I took off the cover of the toilet bowl tank:
Loading Image...

I wrapped the bowl with plastic wrap to keep fumes inside:
Loading Image...

The rubber tube on the funnel turned out to be useless:
Loading Image...

And, I started pouring 28% muriatic acid into the 'thing':
Loading Image...

As Oren mentioned, it bubbled and hissed like a caged tiger:
Loading Image...

And bubbles were even forming in the toilet bowl tank itself:
Loading Image...

The vertical tube itself encrusted with white deposits bubbled:
Loading Image...

After about 1/4 gallon of 28% HCl, I baggied the vertical tube:
Loading Image...

The whole thing is bubbling away as we type:
Loading Image...

As I sit down to a belated dinner with my kid sister & progeny:
Loading Image...

(I will report back in about an hour - for better or worse.)

[Oren]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 04:22:09 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
pour a half cup of pool acid in the bowl - it will fizzle.
You then know it is working on the minerals.

Oh, it fizzled allriht! :)
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668150/img/12668150.jpg
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668070/img/12668070.jpg
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668071/img/12668071.jpg
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668073/img/12668073.jpg
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668075/img/12668075.jpg
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668076/img/12668076.jpg
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668077/img/12668077.jpg
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668078/img/12668078.jpg
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668079/img/12668079.jpg
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668080/img/12668080.jpg
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668082/img/12668082.jpg
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668081/img/12668081.jpg
(I will report back in about an hour - for better or worse.)

Before you flush, use the nylon toilet brush on the weakened stains.
They should brush right off.

We did not go so far as to say empty the tank of water. Hopefully
nothing is damaged by acid on the metal tank parts.

The hose on the funnel isn't necessary.

An empty bowl without any water is best IMO.

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren
We did not go so far as to say empty the tank of water. Hopefully
nothing is damaged by acid on the metal tank parts.

Ooops. I must have missed that step in the instructions.
Can you actually empty the bowl without emptying the tank?

Anyway, the deed is done.

After an hour of hissing and bubbling, I sprinkled the antidote:
Loading Image...

Of course, that initiated a new round of hissing and bubbling:
Loading Image...

After flushing a few times, I poured in the 12% pool bleach:
Loading Image...

Now the bowl is "almost" clean of the brown "cooties":
Loading Image...

My sister wants to know why I still left a little bit ...
Rust 1, naval jelly 0
Rust 1, muriatic acid 10

[Oren]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 06:12:05 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
We did not go so far as to say empty the tank of water. Hopefully
nothing is damaged by acid on the metal tank parts.

Ooops. I must have missed that step in the instructions.
Can you actually empty the bowl without emptying the tank?

Turn the water off, flush and empty the bowl (I use the turkey baste
for remaining water).

Post by Danny D.
Anyway, the deed is done.
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668463/640/12668463.jpg
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668464/img/12668464.jpg
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668465/img/12668465.jpg
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668466/img/12668466.jpg
My sister wants to know why I still left a little bit ...
Rust 1, naval jelly 0
Rust 1, muriatic acid 10

Cooties 0, Acid 10

Pour a little more acid in the bowl and brush the bowl edges with the
nylon toilet brush - brush UNDER the rim also.

Looks good Danny!

Does the toilet flush with a strong vortex (swirl) and siphon?

If not empty, the bowl of water and fill with acid above the bottom
bowl siphon jet. Calcium cooties can restrict the flush siphon.

Yak done good.

[notbob]

Post by Oren
Turn the water off, flush and empty the bowl (I use the turkey baste
for remaining water).

Gotta make a choice on that one, as lowering the water level too far
opens the water baffle (seal).....

<Loading Image...>

.....thereby exposing the fruity aromas of yer sewar or cesspool to
yer delicate snozola. Yum!

Post by Oren
Looks good Danny!

Yes it does, and many thanks go to Danny for that intrepid toilet
tutorial. ;)

My only question is: How did the porcelain fare? Any deterioration
of the glassy smooth surface?

nb

[Oren]

Post by notbob

Post by Oren
Turn the water off, flush and empty the bowl (I use the turkey baste
for remaining water).

Gotta make a choice on that one, as lowering the water level too far
opens the water baffle (seal).....

How so? Without water in the tank or bowl, the flapper is still
closed. Water removed from the bowl is easily replaced with acid for
the short while it works on the minerals in the bottom siphon jet.

Post by notbob
<http://www.hometips.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/toilet-plumbing-diagram.gif>
.....thereby exposing the fruity aromas of yer sewar or cesspool to
yer delicate snozola. Yum!

The tank flapper is closed. Liquid acid still in the bowl. Look at the
trapway and the weir.

<Loading Image...>

Post by notbob

Post by Oren
Looks good Danny!

Yes it does, and many thanks go to Danny for that intrepid toilet
tutorial. ;)
My only question is: How did the porcelain fare? Any deterioration
of the glassy smooth surface?
nb

Danny can answer you, but I contend no damage to the finish glaze. His
example was a Kohler toilet. I have the same and never has muriatic
acid damaged the glaze. The trapway is also glazed.

[notbob]

Post by Oren
example was a Kohler toilet. I have the same and never has muriatic
acid damaged the glaze. The trapway is also glazed.

Good enough!

nb

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren

Post by notbob
My only question is: How did the porcelain fare?

Danny can answer you, but I contend no damage to the finish glaze. His
example was a Kohler toilet. I have the same and never has muriatic
acid damaged the glaze. The trapway is also glazed.

I'd agree with Oren, but it's not all that easy to tell.

Certainly there were spots of smooth glaze afterward, but
there were also areas of roughness.

Since there were areas of smooth glaze, I'd have to assume
the porcelain was not damaged by an hour of 28% pool acid; and,
I'll assume, for now, that the rougher areas were simply coated
with Calcium deposits.

However, I'll take a closer look when I return to the scene of
the crime.

Here, by the way, is a composite before & after montage:
Loading Image...

[notbob]

Post by Danny D.
I'll assume, for now, that the rougher areas were simply coated
with Calcium deposits.

Quite possible. That's one of the downsides of using bleach. It
doesn't alway "remove" the offending stained medium, it merely whitens
it. I've seen residual slime/mold turned white by bleaching action,
despite the slime/mold still being present.

nb

[dadiOH]

Post by notbob
My only question is: How did the porcelain fare? Any deterioration
of the glassy smooth surface?

From what? The hydrochloric (muriatic) acid? Not a chance.

The glassy smooth surface is just that: glass. Acid - except hydrofloric -
is stored in glass containers (or, nowadays, plastic ones). One could also
use sulphuric (battery) acid. Or nitric. You could even mix up some aqua
regia (hydrochloric + nitric) and be good as gold. Except if the commode
was gold plated.

[Danny D.]

Post by notbob
http://www.hometips.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/toilet-plumbing-diagram.gif

Excellent diagram!

I now understand, from the diagram, that I could have emptied the
bowl without emptying the tank.

One question about this diagram:

Where is that dark blue path of water in 'my' toilet bowl?
Loading Image...

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren
Pour a little more acid in the bowl and brush the bowl edges with the
nylon toilet brush - brush UNDER the rim also.

This is good advice as the experiment was done for the acid,
so there was no brushing yet ... just chemicals ... on purpose ...
so that we could tell which worked best
bleach --> useless for the brown stains
naval jelly --> nearly useless for the brown stains
pool acid --> perfect for the brown stains

Post by Oren
Does the toilet flush with a strong vortex (swirl) and siphon?

Yes. But I noticed "other" toilets in her house which seem to
need "the cootie treatment", so, I told her I'd come back to
finish them off.

Any other ideas for experiments?

[Oren]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 06:12:05 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668465/img/12668465.jpg

Oh, flush that bleach out. I recall bleach is bad in the tanks as it
can damage parts like rubber. Just saying...

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren
Oh, flush that bleach out. I recall bleach is bad in the tanks as it
can damage parts like rubber.

Interestingly, the weak 4% household bleach didn't do anything
visible when poured directly into the bowl initially ... but ...
afterward, in the tank, the 3x stronger 12% pool bleach DID whiten
the remaining strands of brown stain!

Loading Image...

However, it might be that the pool acid somehow 'weakened' the
brown stain, such that the pool chlorine could attack it - or -
it could simply be that the pool chlorine was stronger than the
household bleach initially used.

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren
We did not go so far as to say empty the tank of water. Hopefully
nothing is damaged by acid on the metal tank parts.
The hose on the funnel isn't necessary.

A couple of minor questions ...

1. How much baking soda counteracts a 1/4 gallon of HCl?
Loading Image...

2. What was that floating mat of greenish stuff in the end?
Loading Image...

3. Can you really empty the bowl WITHOUT emptying the tank?
Loading Image...

3. Why do the respirator masks have such crappy rubber bands?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668070/img/12668070.jpg

[Oren]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 06:26:27 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
We did not go so far as to say empty the tank of water. Hopefully
nothing is damaged by acid on the metal tank parts.
The hose on the funnel isn't necessary.

A couple of minor questions ...
1. How much baking soda counteracts a 1/4 gallon of HCl?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668520/img/12668520.jpg

You'll know. The bubbles from the baking soda stop reacting. It
settles down...

Post by Danny D.
2. What was that floating mat of greenish stuff in the end?
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668463/img/12668463.jpg

Cooties? Any copper parts on the flush valve? Just guessing there.

Post by Danny D.
3. Can you really empty the bowl WITHOUT emptying the tank?
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668518/img/12668518.jpg

Empty both when the water is turned off.

Post by Danny D.
3. Why do the respirator masks have such crappy rubber bands?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668070/img/12668070.jpg

China?

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren

Post by Danny D.
1. How much baking soda counteracts a 1/4 gallon of HCl?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12668520/img/12668520.jpg

You'll know. The bubbles from the baking soda stop reacting.

Good point. My mistake.

I did NOT wait 'till the baking soda stopped reacting; so the
wastewater is likely a bit on the low pH side right about now...

[IGot2P]

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
IMHO a poor use of Loctite naval jelly.

In retrospect, I agree.
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667874/img/12667874.jpg
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667875/img/12667875.jpg
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667876/img/12667876.jpg

Stain 1, naval jelly 0

Post by Danny D.
With my fingernail, I scraped along the area cleaned by the
phosphoric acid, and it felt rough, with pieces of loosened deposits
flaking off, so, perhaps with more time, the naval jelly "might" have
worked; but it's time to move on to the pièce de résistance, which
is the 28% hydrochloric acid & baking soda experiment.
http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-a-Slow-Toilet

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren
What looks red like rust is cooties and not rust.
Unless you have heavy iron in the water.

The water out here is high in calcium (something like
15 ppm or so, IIRC) but there is no appreciable iron,
as you have already inferred.

So, I agree with you, since in prior experiments on tools,
we've determined that the phosphoric acid turns rusty tools
black in just a few minutes.

That didn't happen here - hence - I would agree with you.
That brown stuff isn't rust.

Loading Image...

I'm not sure 'what' it is - so I'll leave it at "cooties"
for now (but don't tell my sister that 'cuz I said it was rust).

Meanwhile ... I'm preparing the toilet bowl as I had not
realized I'll be flushing a gallon of HCl into the TOP
of the toilet bowl (I thought I was going to put it
directly in the bowl) ... so there's a bit more preparation
necessary.

Will report back as my sister is driving me crazy, looking over
my shoulder all the time. She keeps asking if I know what I'm
doing and why I have to be on the computer all the time if
everything is really under control ...

[micky]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 00:22:09 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
See my comment to you in the other thread. Much of that stain is slime
coming from the bowl passage and rim jets... BTDT (pool acid

The most dangerous is the pool acid, so, I'll do that last.

If it's dangerous, why do it at all.

I know there are non-dangerous things that work.

Looking at the pictures, that's not from urine, that's evaporated
water, maybe rust. There are special products for water residue,
which are not the 3 you mentioned afaicr.

I was in the previous thread and I recommended acidic toilet bowl
cleaner, but that was when you said your father didnt' flush the
toilet after peeing. So I was talking about precipitate from urine.

THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU HAVE, BECAUSE URINE DOESN'T COME OUT OF THE RIM
HOLES.

Post by Danny D.
1. I shut the water supply off and flushed the toilet
2. I plunged & cupped & toweled out the remaining water
3. As a control, I blocked half the toilet with a bath towel
3. Naval Jelly (because it's sticky) went on first
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667774/img/12667774.jpg
This is my sister's kid's bathroom, so, while I was there,
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667775/img/12667775.jpg
I'll wait a half hour - and then wash it off, and report back.
PS: How her kids make 'that' much mess of a sink just brushing
their teeth is beyond me!

[Danny D.]

Post by micky
I was in the previous thread and I recommended acidic toilet bowl
cleaner, but that was when you said your father didnt' flush the
toilet after peeing. So I was talking about precipitate from urine.
THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU HAVE, BECAUSE URINE DOESN'T COME OUT OF THE RIM
HOLES.

I'm not sure whom that comment is directed to, as I (Danny D.)
never intimated that urine was the cause of the brownish stains.

However, the thread you're referring to:
Remove brown toilet stains/deposits (8 Apr 2013 15:56:50 GMT)
was the impetus for this (separate) thread, regarding "my" brownish
reddish stains on my sister's toilet.

In my case, I do agree with you that urine doesn't come out of the
rim, and, from the before-and-after collage below, you can see the
brown-red stains clearly emanating from the underside of the rim:
Loading Image...

[dadiOH]

Post by micky
THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU HAVE, BECAUSE URINE DOESN'T COME OUT OF THE RIM
HOLES.

Does if you piss in the tank :)

[HeyBub]

Post by micky

Post by Danny D.
The most dangerous is the pool acid, so, I'll do that last.

If it's dangerous, why do it at all.

Because it's FUN! Why do people climb mountains, drive race cars, or join
the Marines? Because it's FUN!

Anything that can't be made to explode, fling a projectile over 1,000 feet,
posion the immediate environment, or cause dismemberment is considered WORK.

You'd think everybody would know that.

[Danny D.]

Post by HeyBub

Post by micky
If it's dangerous, why do it at all.

Because it's FUN!

And, because we handle minor dangers every day,
first by asking for advice, from the experienced
team at a.h.r ... for example:
- Winding garage door torsion springs
- Clearing 4-inch thick poison oak with chainsaws
- Washing discolored swimming pool walls with acid
and yes ... the new minor mundane task of
- Cleaning toilet bowls of brown stains

[Robert Macy]

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
See my comment to you in the other thread. Much of that stain is slime
coming from the bowl passage and rim jets...  BTDT (pool acid

The most dangerous is the pool acid, so, I'll do that last.
1. I shut the water supply off and flushed the toilet
2. I plunged & cupped & toweled out the remaining water
3. As a control, I blocked half the toilet with a bath towel
3. Naval Jelly (because it's sticky) went on first
   http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667774/img/12667774.jpg
This is my sister's kid's bathroom, so, while I was there,
 http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667775/img/12667775.jpg
I'll wait a half hour - and then wash it off, and report back.
PS: How her kids make 'that' much mess of a sink just brushing
    their teeth is beyond me!

THANKS FOR BRINGING THIS QUESTION UP!!

We have HARD well water and on a septic system. Based on comments
here, purchased muriatic acid at HD for around $5/gal ! We had one
wing of our home unused and all the water evaporated out of traps and
toilet bowls in that section. Hard as a rock brown crusty coating on
bowl. Turned on fan, held breath, and poured small amount of acid [??
1/2 cup] into the reduced water content bowl. WOW! foam and everything
just slid off. Used a plastic brush and scrubbed around completely
cleaning the bowl out.

Foaming continued for a while, but fumes weren't bad.

Neutralized with baking soda, now THAT foamed and foamed and foamed.
Used about 1/6 of the box! before foaming stopped when adding powder.
Now it's clean! Thanks again.

So armed with that I attacked 'my' toilet bowl [note one way to stay
married a long time is to ALWAYS have separate bathrooms] This bowl
only had slight brownish streaks in the bottom. But foamed up again.
Then while scrubbing out found what looked like two four inch long
angle brackets made of brownish calcium deposits. Obviiously up out of
sight from all previous cleanings. These were thick and glad whatever
that is is out of there. Again thanks for the thread.

That evening, I had severe nose bleeding. I'll bet the fumes took
their toll and I just did not notice. So, when people say avoid the
fumes, AVOID THE FUMES!

[notbob]

Post by Danny D.
1. Pool bleach (12%)
2. Pool acid (28%)
3. Naval jelly

I'm definitely paying attention.

nb

[Danny D.]

Post by notbob
I'm definitely paying attention.

Regarding the blackened bathroom sink, I left the phosphoric acid
on for an hour and then, with the drain open, I opened the faucet.

Almost no water went down the drain. Huh?
Loading Image...

Having never used the sink myself, I realized for the first time
the sink had been almost totally clogged, all along, so I plunged
it and black crud started bubbling up from the pipes below:
Loading Image...

Soon, water was flowing again, such that I could see that the
naval jelly worked, for the most part, to remove the black stuff
and it does not seem to have damaged the nickel plated brass:
Loading Image...

Here is what it looks like, without any scrubbing, but with just
a wipedown with a wet towel (my sister was mad at me for ruining
one of her hand towels, but I am at her house and my bath towel
was already full of chemicals from the toilet bowl experiment):
Loading Image...

Now, it's time to flush the toilet of the phosphoric acid ...

[dadiOH]

Post by Danny D.

Post by notbob
I'm definitely paying attention.

Regarding the blackened bathroom sink, I left the phosphoric acid
on for an hour and then, with the drain open, I opened the faucet.
Almost no water went down the drain. Huh?
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667858/img/12667858.jpg
Having never used the sink myself, I realized for the first time
the sink had been almost totally clogged, all along, so I plunged
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12667860/img/12667860.jpg

Tell your sister to get a stainless steel mesh "stopper" for the sink
(HD/Lowes/etc) and to make her offspring empty it from time to time.

Alternatively, suggest that she use some Drano once in a while. Drano is
lye with some bits of aluminum. The lye digests organic material and also
reacts strongly with the aluminum to create considerable heat and frothing
(within the pipes) thereby aiding the disintegration of the organic matter.

[Danny D.]

Drano is lye with some bits of aluminum. The lye digests organic material
and also reacts strongly with the aluminum to create heat and frothing
(within the pipes) thereby aiding the disintegration of the organic matter.

Now that's interesting!

I wonder how they prevent the lye from reacting with the aluminum
while they're both still in the Drano bottle?

[h***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by Danny D.

Drano is lye with some bits of aluminum.  The lye digests organic material
and also reacts strongly with the aluminum to create heat and frothing
(within the pipes) thereby aiding the disintegration of the organic matter.

Now that's interesting!
I wonder how they prevent the lye from reacting with the aluminum
while they're both still in the Drano bottle?

I was wondering the same thing. Good thread, great pictures!!!

[Stormin Mormon]

The dry stuff has aluminum pieces. The liquid is hydroxide only.
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.

Drano is lye with some bits of aluminum. The lye digests organic material
and also reacts strongly with the aluminum to create heat and frothing
(within the pipes) thereby aiding the disintegration of the organic matter.

Now that's interesting!

I wonder how they prevent the lye from reacting with the aluminum
while they're both still in the Drano bottle?

[dadiOH]

Post by Danny D.

Drano is lye with some bits of aluminum. The lye digests organic
material and also reacts strongly with the aluminum to create heat
and frothing (within the pipes) thereby aiding the disintegration of
the organic matter.

Now that's interesting!
I wonder how they prevent the lye from reacting with the aluminum
while they're both still in the Drano bottle?

No water. The lye is solid.

Note: I'm talking about Drano in a can, not the bottled stuff.

[Danny D.]

Post by Danny D.
In another thread, it was determined that porcelain toilet
bowls were impervious to commonly available acids such as
phosphoric (Naval Jelly) & hydrochloric (pool muriatic acid).
So, I'll run an experiment to see which will remove the
brown stains best without destroying the porcelain or tile.

LESSONS LEARNED:
Loading Image...

My sister's brownish reddish stains dripping down from the
toilet bowl rim were not removed with scrubbing, vinegar,
household bleach, or 20 minutes of naval jelly pink slime.

The stains were removed after an hour of 28% muriatic acid.

Subsequently, 15 minutes of 28% pool bleach had a whitening
effect - but I'm assuming that's a minor triumph.

No obvious damage appears to have been made to the smooth
toilet bowl glazing (although a survey of roughness should
have been made prior to the start of the experiment).

What was extremely surprising was that the plastic-wrap
method of containing the corrosive gases was effective!

At no point in time, other than when actually pouring the
hydrochloric acid into the refill tube, did I get a whiff
of the corrosive muriatic acid fumes.

The procedure actually followed was almost what Oren' had
suggested (with the one inadvertent mistake as I couldn't
figure out how to empty the bowl completely of water without
also emptying the tank, since the water supply was turned off).

EXPERIMENTAL PROCEDURE:
0. Safety goggles, gloves, mask, & spill towels were prepared.
1. The ceiling exhaust fan was running the entire experiment.
2. I shut off the water supply valve & flushed the toilet.
3. This left about 2 inches of residual water in the tank.
4. I sealed the bowl with three sheets of plastic wrap.
5. A plastic funnel was placed in the tank refill tube.
6. Approximately 1/4 to 1/2 gallon of pool acid was poured.
7. The refill tube was sandwich bagged, & rubber banded.
8. The acidic concoction was allowed to bubble for an hour.
9. A half cup of baking soda was sprinkled in the tank & bowl.
10. The water supply was turned back on & the toilet flushed.
11. A cup of pool bleach was poured in the tank & flushed.
12. My sister kept asking me if I knew what I was doing, and,
if I did, then why was it taking so long?

Before & after results are shown below:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12671545/img/12671545.jpg

[Oren]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 15:25:49 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12671632/img/12671632.png

Danny,

What software are you using to make these composite photos?

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren

Post by Danny D.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12671632/img/12671632.png

Danny,
What software are you using to make these composite photos?

I consider myself a master at freeware, so, there's almost
nothing that can't be done with the best freeware.

The effort, in freeware, is in finding the best of the best,
so that you don't waste time on the second-rate pretenders.

For arrows and text, the best, by far, on Windows is Paint.NET,
while, on Linux, the best, by far, is KolourPaint.

For autorotation, autonaming, & resizing, Irfanview batch operations
are the fastest on Windows, while ImageMagick and the Linux shell are
the quickest on Linux.

For example, on Linux, I rotate & resize the photos to a common size:
$ for f in *.jpg;do jhead -autorot $f;convert -resize 800x600 -quality 75 $f;done
Similar batch commands are available in IrfanView on Windows.

Then, I create the montage, on Linux, using ImageMagick:
$ convert photo1.jpg photo2.jpg +attach side-by-side.gif
$ convert photoa.jpg photob.jpg -attach top-and-bottom.gif

Of course, I could just as easily have used Kolourpaint:
$ kolourpaint photo1.jpg
[KolourPaint]Edit->Paste from file->photo2.jpg

IrfanView has a create-panorama command, which works as well, on Windows.

The reason Paint.NET is needed, on Windows, is that IrfanView stinks when
it comes to texting and arrows, something that Paint.NET is stellar at.

Likewise, on Linux, the Gimp stinks at drawing circles, texting, and creating
arrows, which KolourPaint does with aplomb.

You're welcome to ask any image-editing question as I've been researching
the best freeware for decades, so, I pretty much know what I need (and
have spent a LOT of time on alt.comp.freeware & rec.photo.digital over
the decades).

[nestork]

There were some statements made in this thread that I think need to b
corrected for the benefit of any newbies in here.

That's one of the downsides of using bleach. It doesn't always "remove
the offending stained medium, it merely whitens
it. I've seen residual slime/mold turned white by bleaching action,
despite the slime/mold still being present.

Bleach doesn't turn anything white. Bleach, NaOCl, breaks down into Na
and OCl- ions in water, and those hypochlorite ions are inherentl
unstable and break down into chlorine (Cl-) ions and lone oxygen atoms.
Single oxygen atoms are highly reactive and tend to react with unstabl
molecules that would break down on their own given sufficient time, an
those are generally large organic molecules (like DNA for example).
Since most smells, tastes and fabric colours are created by larg
organic molecules, the presence of lone oxygen atoms removes smells
tastes and colours by breaking up those large organic molecules. Th
resulting pieces are still there, it's just that none of those piece
affect our nose, taste buds or absorb light the way the large origina
molecule did, so the smell taste or colour appears to disappear. Bleac
doesn't turn blue denim white; it breaks up the blue dye molecules s
that they no longer absorb yellow and red light. Thus, the denim look
the same as if it had never been dyed blue.

No bacteria or mold could survive having the molecules from which it i
made of being broken up into pieces. That's like saying a brick hous
could remain standing despite all it's bricks being broken into pieces.

Drano is lye with some bits of aluminum. The lye digests organi
material and also reacts strongly with the aluminum to creat
considerable heat and frothing (within the pipes) thereby aiding th
disintegration of the organic matter.

The primary reason for bathroom drains to clog is because of human hai
accumulating in the drain pipe. The primary reason for kitchen drain
to clog is because of cooking oil/grease accumulating in the drai
pipe.

Lye, which can be either sodium or potassium hydroxide (NaOH or KOH) ca
theoretically clear both types clogs. That's because lye will both:

a) dissolve hair. Next time you're cleaning an oven, use a natura
bristle brush to paint the oven cleaner on, and you'll find out that th
oven cleaner dissolves the brush bristles. The fix is to use a nylon o
polyester bristle brush to avoid that problem.

b) react with cooking oil/grease to form soap and glycerine. And
unlike cooking oil/grease, both soap and glycerine are easy to remov
because they both dissolve in water. That chemical reaction between ly
and oil/grease to form soap and glycerine is called "saponification":
'Saponification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saponification)

So, the reason why Drano uses lye as it's active ingredient is no
because lye digests organic material. Lye dissolves animal hair, and i
reacts with grease to convert it into a water soluble compound calle
"soap" and that makes it effective at clearing the most common cause o
clogs in both bathroom and kitchen sinks. Or, so the makers of Dran
would have you believe


--
nestork

[notbob]

No bacteria or mold could survive having the molecules from which it is
made of being broken up into pieces. That's like saying a brick house
could remain standing despite all it's bricks being broken into pieces.

Careful reading of my statement reveals I said nothing about the mold
surviving. And while the brick house may not remain standing, the
crumbled rubble of the brick house remains. ;)

nb.

[dadiOH]

So, the reason why Drano uses lye as it's active ingredient is not
because lye digests organic material.

I was being simplistic.

[Danny D.]

Post by nestork
Bleach doesn't turn anything white.

That was a great writeup on how bleach worked, and how lye works.

One question:
Why did the 100% cotton towel disintegrate from the bleach?
Loading Image...

[nestork]

-
Bleach doesn't turn anything white.-
That was a great writeup on how bleach worked, and how lye works.
Why did the 100% cotton towel disintegrate from the bleach?
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12660685/img/12660685.jpg

Remember that lone oxygen atoms will preferentially react with larg
organic molecules which tend to be less stable than other molecules?

Well, cotton is almost 100% cellulose, and cellulose is what wood i
mostly made of. So, cellulose is a large organic molecule too. Lon
oxygen atoms will break cellulose molecules apart just as aggressivel
as they break dye molecules apart.

You can prove to yourself that it's not just cotton that will b
attacked by bleach. Leave a cellulose sponge soaking in bleac
overnight, and the cellulose molecules in the sponge will get broken t
pieces too. In the morning, it will still look like the same sponge
but will have no strength any more. If you pull it out of the bleac
and squeeze it, it'll crush to form a mush in your hand similar to we
bread.


PS: You don't need to know the rest:

Water from the roots, CO2 from the air and sunlight combine together i
a tree's leaves to produce glucose; the simplest form of all th
different kinds of sugar molecules. (lactose, maltose, dextrose
fructose, etc.)

However, there are two different forms of glucose molecules; alph
glucose and beta glucose:

[image
Loading Image...]

It turns out that if you stack alpha glucose molecules up like bricks i
a wall, you get something called "starch", which is what rice, potato
and bread are made of.

If you stack beta glucose molecules up like bricks in a wall, you ge
cellulose, which is what cotton, paper and wood (mostly) are made of.

Every chemical you find in a plant, whether it's the lignin holding th
wood cells together in the tree trunk, the tannins in the plant's leave
or the extracts that native people's used to treat medical conditions
were all made by the plant out of the water and nutrients gathered b
the roots and the glucose produced by the leaves.

Right now we're using enzymes to break starch molecules down into thei
constituent sugar molecules, and then fermenting that sugar to mak
ethanol to sell as an automotive fuel. And, the big thing in bio-fuel
research right now is to be able to do the same thing with cellulose.

Then, everything grown on a farm could be sold. Corn farmers, fo
example could sell their corn cobs as food, and most of the rest of th
plant as cellulose to make ethanol out of. And, old t-shirts, old book
and old furniture, all made of cellulose, would suddenly have wort
because they too could be made into ethanol. Cows, termites and woo
rot fungi have the enzymes in them to do that, but getting those enzyme
to survive and work outside of those living organisms is the challenge


--
nestork

[dadiOH]

nestork wrote:

<snip good stuff>

Then, everything grown on a farm could be sold. Corn farmers, for
example could sell their corn cobs as food, and most of the rest of
the plant as cellulose to make ethanol out of. And, old t-shirts,
old books and old furniture, all made of cellulose, would suddenly
have worth because they too could be made into ethanol. Cows,
termites and wood rot fungi have the enzymes in them to do that, but
getting those enzymes to survive and work outside of those living
organisms is the challenge.

Looks like we all should become termite huggers :)

[h***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren

Post by Danny D.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12671632/img/12671632.png

Danny,
What software are you using to make these composite photos?

I consider myself a master at freeware, so, there's almost
nothing that can't be done with the best freeware.
The effort, in freeware, is in finding the best of the best,
so that you don't waste time on the second-rate pretenders.
For arrows and text, the best, by far, on Windows is Paint.NET,
while, on Linux, the best, by far, is KolourPaint.
For autorotation, autonaming, & resizing, Irfanview batch operations
are the fastest on Windows, while ImageMagick and the Linux shell are
the quickest on Linux.
 $ for f in *.jpg;do jhead -autorot $f;convert -resize 800x600 -quality 75 $f;done
Similar batch commands are available in IrfanView on Windows.
 $ convert photo1.jpg photo2.jpg +attach side-by-side.gif
 $ convert photoa.jpg photob.jpg -attach top-and-bottom.gif
 $ kolourpaint photo1.jpg
   [KolourPaint]Edit->Paste from file->photo2.jpg
IrfanView has a create-panorama command, which works as well, on Windows.
The reason Paint.NET is needed, on Windows, is that IrfanView stinks when
it comes to texting and arrows, something that Paint.NET is stellar at.
Likewise, on Linux, the Gimp stinks at drawing circles, texting, and creating
arrows, which KolourPaint does with aplomb.
You're welcome to ask any image-editing question as I've been researching
the best freeware for decades, so, I pretty much know what I need (and
have spent a LOT of time on alt.comp.freeware & rec.photo.digital over
the decades).

I'm a Paint fan also, you can do all sorts of good stuf with/on it.

[dadiOH]

Post by Oren
On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 15:25:49 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12671632/img/12671632.png

Danny,
What software are you using to make these composite photos?

If all you want to do is make one image from two or more, it is easy to do
so with what you already have: MS Paint.

1. Open MS Paint

2. Open an image in any graphic program (including another instance of MS
Paint)

3. Copy the image (Ctrl + A then Ctrl + C) or a portion of it (select the
area then Ctrl + C)

4. Now paste into the MS Paint from #1 above. It will paste into the top
left hand corner but you can move it wherever you want.

5. Repeat 2-5 as many times as you wish

6. Save the new composite image.

MS Paint starts off with a very large canvas (space to put stuff) and
available space that doesn't get filled up with your images is also saved.
You can get rid of it in MS Paint but it's a pain to do so; far easier to
open the new image in IrfanView, select and copy what you want, paste it
into a new IrfanView instance and save that.

[dadiOH]

Post by dadiOH

Post by Oren
On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 15:25:49 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12671632/img/12671632.png

Danny,
What software are you using to make these composite photos?

If all you want to do is make one image from two or more, it is easy
to do so with what you already have: MS Paint.
1. Open MS Paint
2. Open an image in any graphic program (including another instance
of MS Paint)
3. Copy the image (Ctrl + A then Ctrl + C) or a portion of it (select
the area then Ctrl + C)
4. Now paste into the MS Paint from #1 above. It will paste into the
top left hand corner but you can move it wherever you want.
5. Repeat 2-5 as many times as you wish
6. Save the new composite image.
MS Paint starts off with a very large canvas (space to put stuff) and
available space that doesn't get filled up with your images is also
saved. You can get rid of it in MS Paint but it's a pain to do so;
far easier to open the new image in IrfanView, select and copy what
you want, paste it into a new IrfanView instance and save that.

Here's an example:
http://www.floridaloghouse.net/photos.htm

Everything within the brown border is one image made as I explained above.
Text is via IrfanView.

[Danny D.]

Post by dadiOH

MS Paint & IrfanView

http://www.floridaloghouse.net/photos.htm
Everything within the brown border is one image made as I explained above.
Text is via IrfanView.

Agreed. That is a stellar presentation. Very nice.

I've used both MS Paint & IrfanView on Windows; but, I must suggest
that everyone try texting and arrowing with Paint.NET before you
conclude anything about any other program. Circle drawing is just
OK with Paint.NET.

Those three things are really what decides what freeware is "best"
for basic editing of DIY-style screenshots & photos:
- Texting (there should never be a need to draw a box!)
- Arrows (they should be drawn in a single point-&-click sequence!)
- Circles (they should be easy to point-and-click create)

Given those three extremely common requirements, it's sad (and
surprising), that almost all freeware editing programs fall flat
on their faces, when it comes to these three simple tasks.

You'll NEVER find another program that does curved arrows better
and easier than does Paint.NET (whether solid or dashed) - and - you'll
also find that the texting in MS Paint is exactly like it should be
(i.e., no need to estimate the size & shape to sweep out a box!).
The drawing of circles is pretty easy but nothing special.

Unfortunately, the best I could find on Linux for the same extremely
common tasks are atrocious in comparison. In Kolourpaint, you have
to estimate & sweep out a box to text; and in Kolourpaint you have
to manually draw the arrows, then curve then, then create your own
arrowheads from scratch ... and ... you can just forget about making
dashed arrows. As with Paint.NET on Windows, Kolourpaint on Linux
drawing of circles is pretty easy but nothing special.

As always, if there WAS a freeware editing program that did all three
of those extremely common tasks well, that would be the program I'd
consider best - and certainly - it would be the program I'd use
and recommend.

[dadiOH]

Post by Danny D.

Post by dadiOH

MS Paint & IrfanView

http://www.floridaloghouse.net/photos.htm
Everything within the brown border is one image made as I explained
above. Text is via IrfanView.

Agreed. That is a stellar presentation. Very nice.

Thanks.
____________

Post by Danny D.
I've used both MS Paint & IrfanView on Windows; but, I must suggest
that everyone try texting and arrowing with Paint.NET before you
conclude anything about any other program. Circle drawing is just
OK with Paint.NET.

I did d/l it a day or two ago and look forward to trying it.
______________

Post by Danny D.
Those three things are really what decides what freeware is "best"
- Texting (there should never be a need to draw a box!)

I find the box useful inasmuch as I can then center words and lines within a
given area.

[Danny D.]

Post by dadiOH
If all you want to do is make one image from two or more,
it is easy to do so with what you already have: MS Paint.

Nothing wrong with MS Paint, but the collage (or is it a montage?)
also required texting, circling, and arrowing - which is problematic
in most programs.

IMHO, on Windows, nothing does curved arrows easier (or better) than
Paint.NET; and, as you noted, nothing crops easier than IrfanView.

But, the choice of freeware depends on which program does the sum
total of the needed tasks easiest and best.

Unfortunately, I've never found ONE program (on either Windows or Linux)
that does the five basic DIY-editing tasks:

Easy stuff like cropping, texting, rotating, naming, & format conversion;
plus, the harder stuff like circling and arrowing & canvas enlargement.

[Oren]

Post by dadiOH

Post by Oren
On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 15:25:49 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12671632/img/12671632.png

Danny,
What software are you using to make these composite photos?

If all you want to do is make one image from two or more, it is easy to do
so with what you already have: MS Paint.
1. Open MS Paint
2. Open an image in any graphic program (including another instance of MS
Paint)
3. Copy the image (Ctrl + A then Ctrl + C) or a portion of it (select the
area then Ctrl + C)
4. Now paste into the MS Paint from #1 above. It will paste into the top
left hand corner but you can move it wherever you want.
5. Repeat 2-5 as many times as you wish
6. Save the new composite image.
MS Paint starts off with a very large canvas (space to put stuff) and
available space that doesn't get filled up with your images is also saved.
You can get rid of it in MS Paint but it's a pain to do so; far easier to
open the new image in IrfanView, select and copy what you want, paste it
into a new IrfanView instance and save that.

Thanks. I tinkered with MS Paint in Win98SE. Will check it out, again.

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren
What software are you using to make these composite photos?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12671632/img/12671632.png
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12671545/img/12671545.jpg

Oren,

I got carried away in the prior reply; so I'll directly answer.
I used a combination of Imagemagick & Kolourpaint on Linux
to create the DIY montages above.

1. Imagemagick to resize the photos to similar sizes.
2. Imagemagick to slap similar-sized photos together.
3. Kolourpaint to hand craft the more complex arrangements.
4. And, Kolorpaint to text, circle, & arrow the results.

Had I been on Windows, I would have used:
1. Irfanview to resize the photos to similar sizes.
2. Irfanview to slap similar-sized photos together.
3. Paint.NET to make the more complex arrangements.
4. And, Paint.NET to text, circle, & arrow the results.

IMHO, there is no single freeware program on either platform,
which will perform all the tasks necessary to assemble and
annotate a typical task-oriented photo scenario such as is
shown in the better amateur do-it-yourself (DIY) project
writeups.

PS: I'm not sure what the difference is between a collage
and a montage, so, I used the word "montage" to indicate
an assemblage of photos & screenshots intended to help in
explaining how to do something, in a single resulting image.

[h***@sbcglobal.net]

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
What software are you using to make these composite photos?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12671632/img/12671632.png
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/12671545/img/12671545.jpg

Oren,
I got carried away in the prior reply; so I'll directly answer.
I used a combination of Imagemagick & Kolourpaint on Linux
to create the DIY montages above.
1. Imagemagick to resize the photos to similar sizes.
2. Imagemagick to slap similar-sized photos together.
3. Kolourpaint to hand craft the more complex arrangements.
4. And, Kolorpaint to text, circle, & arrow the results.
1. Irfanview to resize the photos to similar sizes.
2. Irfanview to slap similar-sized photos together.
3. Paint.NET to make the more complex arrangements.
4. And, Paint.NET to text, circle, & arrow the results.
IMHO, there is no single freeware program on either platform,
which will perform all the tasks necessary to assemble and
annotate a typical task-oriented photo scenario such as is
shown in the better amateur do-it-yourself (DIY) project
writeups.
PS: I'm not sure what the difference is between a collage
and a montage, so, I used the word "montage" to indicate
an assemblage of photos & screenshots intended to help in
explaining how to do something, in a single resulting image.

I shoudl have said I'm a Paint.net fan.

[Danny D.]

Post by h***@sbcglobal.net
I shoudl have said I'm a Paint.net fan.

I am too. I 'wish' Linux had as good a tool as Paint.NET for
annotating DIY photos!

Alas, the best I can find on Linux is KolourPaint.

Here's a summary collage of how to remove brownish deposits
(made with KolourPaint):

Loading Image...

[Oren]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 14:11:30 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
1. Irfanview to resize the photos to similar sizes.
2. Irfanview to slap similar-sized photos together.
3. Paint.NET to make the more complex arrangements.
4. And, Paint.NET to text, circle, & arrow the results.

I run Winders fer Rednecks v.7.

Thanks. I'll dig up these tools.

(results from my first ever electrolysis tank for de-rusting tools and
cast iron...)

Nate made me do it...

[Oren]

On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 14:11:30 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.
1. Irfanview to resize the photos to similar sizes.
2. Irfanview to slap similar-sized photos together.
3. Paint.NET to make the more complex arrangements.
4. And, Paint.NET to text, circle, & arrow the results.

Put both on today and messed around. I'll figure out the text (where
I want to place it).

For the most part I'm on the trail for composites for DIY.

Thanks Danny. Nice App's...

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren
For the most part I'm on the trail for composites for DIY.

You might like the panorama command in Irfanview:
http://www.wikihow.com/Create-a-Panorama-Image-Using-IrfanView

[Oren]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 01:50:14 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
For the most part I'm on the trail for composites for DIY.

http://www.wikihow.com/Create-a-Panorama-Image-Using-IrfanView

Thanks. I've been there already....an easy way to put 3-4 photos side
by side - iirc.

Adding text is what I need to figure out. I played with it so I will
eventually get to it. I thought to just add a new layer with text
only?

[dadiOH]

Post by Oren
On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 01:50:14 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
For the most part I'm on the trail for composites for DIY.

http://www.wikihow.com/Create-a-Panorama-Image-Using-IrfanView

Thanks. I've been there already....an easy way to put 3-4 photos side
by side - iirc.
Adding text is what I need to figure out. I played with it so I will
eventually get to it. I thought to just add a new layer with text
only?

In Irfanview? Draw a box then Ctrl + T

[Robert Macy]

Post by Oren
On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 01:50:14 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
For the most part I'm on the trail for composites for DIY.

http://www.wikihow.com/Create-a-Panorama-Image-Using-IrfanView

Thanks. I've been there already....an easy way to put 3-4 photos side
by side - iirc.
Adding text is what I need to figure out. I played with it so I will
eventually get to it.  I thought to just add a new layer with text
only?

my workaround for text is to open with irfanview and save as .bmp
open in PAINT and add text, marks, etc save.
open again in Irfanview and save as .jpg

It's a workaround.

[Danny D.]

Post by Oren
Adding text is what I need to figure out. I played with it so I will
eventually get to it. I thought to just add a new layer with text
only?

I would NOT add text with Irfanview. Use Paint.NET.
Muuuuuch easier & more intuitive.

[Poutnik]

Danny D. posted Sat, 20 Apr 2013 11:58:17 +0000 (UTC)

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
Adding text is what I need to figure out. I played with it so I will
eventually get to it. I thought to just add a new layer with text
only?

I would NOT add text with Irfanview. Use Paint.NET.
Muuuuuch easier & more intuitive.

To defend IV,
it is rather viewer with added simple editing capabilities.

[Danny D.]

Post by Poutnik

Post by Danny D.
I would NOT add text with Irfanview. Use Paint.NET.
Muuuuuch easier & more intuitive.

To defend IV,
it is rather viewer with added simple editing capabilities.

I do agree that IrfanView is absolutely fantastic as the best
picture "viewer" on the PC, bar none. Mainly it's fast. Really
really really fast. Twice as fast as most programs, and ten
times faster than a lot of them.

Even though IrfanView is only a "viewer", we all know IV also
does CROPPING wonderfully (click, click, crop). It converts
to various formats nicely (e.g., JPEG -> GIF); and IrfanView
is great with batch renamin and resizing operations (which
aren't so easy on the Windows operating system elsewise).

However, when it comes to TEXTING, drawing CIRCLES, and
especially curved ARROWs, IrfanView stinks. For that,
I'd suggest Paint.NET ...

The funny thing is that TEXTING is done wrong on almost
all picture editing programs in that they force you to
choose the area BEFORE you type a single character!

What's inexplicable about that is there is no need for
that. With Paint.NET, you simply type. No need to choose
any area whatsoever.

Likewise, arrows are almost atrocious how they're handled
on most picture-editing programs. With most, all you can do
is manually draw a curve and then manually draw an arrowhead
and you can just about forget doing dashed lines.

With Paint.NET, it's all done for you. You just draw the
arrow point 1, and then point 2, and it's done for you.
(You've pre-selected the type of arrow, direction,
arrowhead, dashes, color, etc., as the default.)

On the other hand, drawing circles and boxes around things
is relatively easy in most programs, but heaven forbid
trying to do it in something powerful like The Gimp. You'll
go crazy. Sure, it 'can' be done; but you'd die trying.

Irfanview isn't too bad with drawing circles, but, since
you NEED paint.net for the arrows and text, you may as
well draw the circles there.

In summary, IrfanView is a fantastic picture-viewing program,
which is fast and simple and powerful ... but it stinks for
the basic annotation of DIY-style photos. For for that,
Paint.NET is the best (although others will work too).

Note: This is all on Windows. For Linux, the corresponding
best DIY-photo editing program is the combination of
ImageMagick for batch operations, and Kolourpaint for the
manual texting, arrowing, and circling of objects.

[Danny D.]

Post by Danny D.
However, when it comes to TEXTING, drawing CIRCLES, and
especially curved ARROWs, IrfanView stinks.

For the record, today I needed to reproduce a firefox bug
on both WinXP and on Linux, so, I created essentially the
same screenshot on each platform:

Windows:
Loading Image...
Linux:
Loading Image...

OBSERVATION:
I haven't been on Windows for a while, so, I had forgotten what
a fantastic dream Paint.net was in terms of usability (as compared
to what exists on Linux) in performing the three basic screenshot
annotation tasks of:
(a) texting (you just click & type ... that's it!)
(b) circling (you just click & sweep ... that's it!)
(c) arrowing (you just click & click ... that's it!)

In comparison the critical annotation triad on Linux was kludgey
at best.
(a) texting (you have to pre-select the text area ... yuck)
(b) circling (you just click and sweep ... so this is good)
(c) arrowing (all manual ... especially dashes, curves & heads)

Note: It's amazing that, on Linux, there isn't a single decent
freeware program for these three simple tasks that even comes
close to comparing to what exists on Windows - and - on Windows,
it's amazing that only one program does all three tasks correctly
(i.e., efficiently).

[Alan Browne]

Post by Danny D.

Post by Danny D.
However, when it comes to TEXTING, drawing CIRCLES, and
especially curved ARROWs, IrfanView stinks.

For the record, today I needed to reproduce a firefox bug
on both WinXP and on Linux, so, I created essentially the
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/12745022/img/12745022.gif
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12745771/img/12745771.png
I haven't been on Windows for a while, so, I had forgotten what
a fantastic dream Paint.net was in terms of usability (as compared
to what exists on Linux) in performing the three basic screenshot
(a) texting (you just click & type ... that's it!)
(b) circling (you just click & sweep ... that's it!)
(c) arrowing (you just click & click ... that's it!)
In comparison the critical annotation triad on Linux was kludgey
at best.
(a) texting (you have to pre-select the text area ... yuck)
(b) circling (you just click and sweep ... so this is good)
(c) arrowing (all manual ... especially dashes, curves & heads)
Note: It's amazing that, on Linux, there isn't a single decent
freeware program for these three simple tasks that even comes
close to comparing to what exists on Windows - and - on Windows,
it's amazing that only one program does all three tasks correctly
(i.e., efficiently).

Please stop x-posting your adventures to rec.photo.digital. At worst
take this to a graphics/design NG. But it really has no place here.

[Danny D.]

Post by Danny D.
1. Pool bleach (12%)
2. Pool acid (28%)
3. Naval jelly

One interesting result I should mention is that I've repeated
the acid test on a few toilet bowls since opening this thread,
and, one thing that is clear about the 'brown' deposits is that
the pool acid dissolves them - but - the pool bleach merely
turns them white.

So, I think they're mineral deposits which have, for whatever
reason, taken on a brown hue.

[Oren]

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 18:30:55 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Danny D.
1. Pool bleach (12%)
2. Pool acid (28%)
3. Naval jelly

One interesting result I should mention is that I've repeated
the acid test on a few toilet bowls since opening this thread,
and, one thing that is clear about the 'brown' deposits is that
the pool acid dissolves them - but - the pool bleach merely
turns them white.
So, I think they're mineral deposits which have, for whatever
reason, taken on a brown hue.

The brown / reddish slime is bacteria (?) growing in the bowl rim. It
exits via the rim jets. This is why the stains are vertical in the
bowl.

Hard water causes calcium build-up around the rim jets, slows the
flush vortex / bowl washing.

The test is a cup or so of pool acid in the bowl - fizzles - it is
calcium in my area. I have a water softener and the acid will not
fizzle, like with hard water.

If you use duct tape strips under the rim it blocks the jets, the
acid will work better when poured into the overflow tube. Allow to
work and then remove the tape. Some extra acid to clean the bowl.
Brush under the rim as well.

Removing all the water (sacrificial turkey baster) and adding acid
above the bottom throat jet will clean that jet as well.

Neutralize with baking soda and flush.