Can welding Oxygen be used in place of medical oxygen?

[Some Guy]

Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

[BQ340]

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

Nope, they are the same. I see the paramedics at the welding supply
store all the time, getting their bottles filled from the same rack mine
are.

MikeB

[Some Guy]

Post by BQ340

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc,
that would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous)
for helping to supplement breathing / respiration ?

Nope, they are the same. I see the paramedics at the welding supply
store all the time, getting their bottles filled from the same rack
mine are.

And just to be clear -

Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air". And what
I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us right now.

Yes?

[Tom Horne]

Post by Some Guy

Post by BQ340

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc,
that would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous)
for helping to supplement breathing / respiration ?

Nope, they are the same. I see the paramedics at the welding supply
store all the time, getting their bottles filled from the same rack
mine are.

And just to be clear -
Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".  And what
I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us right now.
Yes?

To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
percent oxygen. Medical oxygen is nearly one hundred percent oxygen.
The inert components of air are removed from the compressed oxygen
that is used for patient breathing assistance and making ordinary
metals burn and melt together into a single piece of metal.
--
Tom Horne

[Some Guy]

Post by Tom Horne

Post by Some Guy

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen (...)

And just to be clear -
Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".
And what I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us
right now.
Yes?

To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
percent oxygen.

And what I meant by "way more" was that welding oxygen has a higher
oxygen content (or oxygen concentration) vs ordinary air. So I don't
know why you'd say it's "way less".

Post by Tom Horne
Medical oxygen is nearly one hundred percent oxygen.

And likewise for welding oxygen - yes?

Post by Tom Horne
Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
discussion).

From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
(Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
various prices based on the label on the tank.

My guess is that the price differential is caused by liability insurance
and the need to recoup that cost based on the end-use of the gas. The
insurance industry might perceive that aviation oxygen (as a product)
carries the highest risk to the producer / seller, with medical oxygen
less risky, and welding oxygen the lowest risk. Risk in this context
means what sort of incident could happen if the wrong gas is
accidentially sold to the end user, or could happen if the tank fails.

The humidity of compressed oxygen seems to be a red herring. In medical
situations such as the hospital bedside, oxygen supply lines are passed
through a bubbler or some other humidification device to add humidity to
the air. This is a stationary situation where the person is likely to
be on the air supply for an extended period, and humidification is done
more for comfort or to prevent airway irritation than anything else. In
other medical situations (EMS O2 respirator tanks) the air is dry -
because it simply can't supply O2 for an extended period anyways.

And you don't want to get water in your high-pressure tanks anyways - if
only so they don't rust.

Aviation air also can't contain a lot of humidity because (or so the
story goes) the water could freeze at high altitudes and mess up the
supply and metering lines.

So the bottom line is that if you walk into a welding supply store to
buy an oxygen tank, don't let on that you intend to use it to fill your
plane's on-board tank, or you want to make an oxygen tent for your sick
pet. The guy behind the counter will most likely go ape-shit and either
deny your purchase, or force you to buy the more expensive tank -
probably because their insurance company forces them to do that.

The insurance industry plays a far larger role behind the scenes in our
daily lives than we realize. The products we can buy, the services we
use, the way they are delivered or sold to us, etc, exist because the
manufacterers, retails or providers have reached a stable (perhaps even
strained) coexistance with the insurance industry.

[Kurt Ullman]

Post by Some Guy

Post by Harry K
Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
discussion).

From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
(Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
various prices based on the label on the tank.

FWIW, all oxygen is too dry for extended period use. That is why they
run it through the little bottle thingy first in medical uses.
Also, if you believe in eHow.com
http://www.ehow.com/about_6370762_medical-vs_-welding-oxygen.html
Another aside, so although O2 USP has the same basic source as
industrial gases, it's specified., handled, distributed and tracked
differently. O2 USP has FDA mandated lot numbers to facilitate product
recalls. These lot numbers are tracked all the way to the patient.

Post by Some Guy
The insurance industry plays a far larger role behind the scenes in our
daily lives than we realize. The products we can buy, the services we
use, the way they are delivered or sold to us, etc, exist because the
manufacterers, retails or providers have reached a stable (perhaps even
strained) coexistance with the insurance industry.

Which means that the Plaintiff lawyers play a far larger role,
since most of the insurance company's concerns has to do with keeping
the PL out of their pocket.

[LSMFT]

Post by Some Guy

Post by Tom Horne

Post by Some Guy

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen (...)

And just to be clear -
Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".
And what I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us
right now.
Yes?

To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
percent oxygen.

And what I meant by "way more" was that welding oxygen has a higher
oxygen content (or oxygen concentration) vs ordinary air. So I don't
know why you'd say it's "way less".

Post by Tom Horne
Medical oxygen is nearly one hundred percent oxygen.

And likewise for welding oxygen - yes?

Post by Tom Horne
Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
discussion).

From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
(Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
various prices based on the label on the tank.
My guess is that the price differential is caused by liability insurance
and the need to recoup that cost based on the end-use of the gas. The
insurance industry might perceive that aviation oxygen (as a product)
carries the highest risk to the producer / seller, with medical oxygen
less risky, and welding oxygen the lowest risk. Risk in this context
means what sort of incident could happen if the wrong gas is
accidentially sold to the end user, or could happen if the tank fails.
The humidity of compressed oxygen seems to be a red herring. In medical
situations such as the hospital bedside, oxygen supply lines are passed
through a bubbler or some other humidification device to add humidity to
the air. This is a stationary situation where the person is likely to
be on the air supply for an extended period, and humidification is done
more for comfort or to prevent airway irritation than anything else. In
other medical situations (EMS O2 respirator tanks) the air is dry -
because it simply can't supply O2 for an extended period anyways.
And you don't want to get water in your high-pressure tanks anyways - if
only so they don't rust.
Aviation air also can't contain a lot of humidity because (or so the
story goes) the water could freeze at high altitudes and mess up the
supply and metering lines.
So the bottom line is that if you walk into a welding supply store to
buy an oxygen tank, don't let on that you intend to use it to fill your
plane's on-board tank, or you want to make an oxygen tent for your sick
pet. The guy behind the counter will most likely go ape-shit and either
deny your purchase, or force you to buy the more expensive tank -
probably because their insurance company forces them to do that.
The insurance industry plays a far larger role behind the scenes in our
daily lives than we realize. The products we can buy, the services we
use, the way they are delivered or sold to us, etc, exist because the
manufacterers, retails or providers have reached a stable (perhaps even
strained) coexistance with the insurance industry.

Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by LSMFT
Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?

Oxygen concentrators remove the nitrogen and leave you with about 93%
oxygen. It has no pressure though, and it would still have to be
pressurized to about 10 psi to work for welding. Probably not impossible,
just not practical.

[Jim Elbrecht]

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by LSMFT
Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?

Oxygen concentrators remove the nitrogen and leave you with about 93%
oxygen. It has no pressure though, and it would still have to be
pressurized to about 10 psi to work for welding. Probably not impossible,
just not practical.

Though real popular with folks who melt glass with smallish torches- a
20pound LP tank and an O2 concentrator is a real popular setup.

Went to find a link for details and found this site-
http://www.sundanceglass.com/oxygen-concentrator.htm

I guess you can get one for large torches now-- advertised up to
20psi & 15LPM. [and up to $3500]

I noticed my m-i-l has an attachment on her [medical] O2 that lets her
fill a small tank. I don't know what the pressure is-- and I also see
that she still rents the big tanks, so it can't be too efficient.

Jim

[Doug Miller]

Post by LSMFT
Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?

I imagine because it can't supply oxygen at the rate required for welding.

[Frank]

Post by LSMFT

Post by Some Guy

Post by Some Guy

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen (...)

And just to be clear -
Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".
And what I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us
right now.
Yes?

To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
percent oxygen.

And what I meant by "way more" was that welding oxygen has a higher
oxygen content (or oxygen concentration) vs ordinary air. So I don't
know why you'd say it's "way less".

Medical oxygen is nearly one hundred percent oxygen.

And likewise for welding oxygen - yes?

Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
discussion).

From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
(Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
various prices based on the label on the tank.
My guess is that the price differential is caused by liability insurance
and the need to recoup that cost based on the end-use of the gas. The
insurance industry might perceive that aviation oxygen (as a product)
carries the highest risk to the producer / seller, with medical oxygen
less risky, and welding oxygen the lowest risk. Risk in this context
means what sort of incident could happen if the wrong gas is
accidentially sold to the end user, or could happen if the tank fails.
The humidity of compressed oxygen seems to be a red herring. In medical
situations such as the hospital bedside, oxygen supply lines are passed
through a bubbler or some other humidification device to add humidity to
the air. This is a stationary situation where the person is likely to
be on the air supply for an extended period, and humidification is done
more for comfort or to prevent airway irritation than anything else. In
other medical situations (EMS O2 respirator tanks) the air is dry -
because it simply can't supply O2 for an extended period anyways.
And you don't want to get water in your high-pressure tanks anyways - if
only so they don't rust.
Aviation air also can't contain a lot of humidity because (or so the
story goes) the water could freeze at high altitudes and mess up the
supply and metering lines.
So the bottom line is that if you walk into a welding supply store to
buy an oxygen tank, don't let on that you intend to use it to fill your
plane's on-board tank, or you want to make an oxygen tent for your sick
pet. The guy behind the counter will most likely go ape-shit and either
deny your purchase, or force you to buy the more expensive tank -
probably because their insurance company forces them to do that.
The insurance industry plays a far larger role behind the scenes in our
daily lives than we realize. The products we can buy, the services we
use, the way they are delivered or sold to us, etc, exist because the
manufacterers, retails or providers have reached a stable (perhaps even
strained) coexistance with the insurance industry.

Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?

I see a lot of people getting these machines:

http://www.vitalitymedical.com/Catalog/Home-Oxygen-Concentrators-1163-.html

I would imagine there are concentrators available for welding.

As for original question, industrial oxygen should be suitable for
breathing. All compressed oxygen must be free of impurities like oil
because of potential for explosion.

[HeyBub]

Post by LSMFT
Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen
from the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?

Large scale O2 generation involves cooling air to liquify it, then pulling
off the components: Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2, Argon, etc.

You CAN get Oxygen by electrolysis of water (plus Hydrogen), but the energy
expenditure is horrendous.

Certainly O2 generators can be powered by chemical means; the Oxygen masks
on airliners rely on chemical release of O2 by the burning of chlorates or
perchlorates.

All that said, you can get O2 generators for small applications (bedside,
veterinary, etc.) use, up to, and including, institutional generation, say,
for hospitals.

To answer your question directly: Bottled O2 is far cheaper than the
alternatives.

[Frank]

Post by HeyBub

Post by LSMFT
Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen
from the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?

Large scale O2 generation involves cooling air to liquify it, then pulling
off the components: Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2, Argon, etc.
You CAN get Oxygen by electrolysis of water (plus Hydrogen), but the energy
expenditure is horrendous.
Certainly O2 generators can be powered by chemical means; the Oxygen masks
on airliners rely on chemical release of O2 by the burning of chlorates or
perchlorates.
All that said, you can get O2 generators for small applications (bedside,
veterinary, etc.) use, up to, and including, institutional generation, say,
for hospitals.
To answer your question directly: Bottled O2 is far cheaper than the
alternatives.

The concentrators work by reverse osmosis. You can travel with them and
use rechargeable batteries. If you are home, immobile, the medical
supplier will often give you liquid and tubing is strung around the
house. For short trips of a few hours, you can take liquid. You hire a
supplier and it is up to him to satisfy all your requirements, tank,
liquid or concentrator.

[Some Guy]

Post by HeyBub
To answer your question directly: Bottled O2 is far cheaper than the
alternatives.

The question was not if bottled O2 is cheaper than the alternatives.

The question was - are all forms or labels of bottled O2 essentially
equivalent.

[Steve Barker]

Post by LSMFT

Post by Some Guy

Post by Some Guy

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen (...)

And just to be clear -
Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".
And what I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us
right now.
Yes?

To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
percent oxygen.

And what I meant by "way more" was that welding oxygen has a higher
oxygen content (or oxygen concentration) vs ordinary air. So I don't
know why you'd say it's "way less".

Medical oxygen is nearly one hundred percent oxygen.

And likewise for welding oxygen - yes?

Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
discussion).

From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
(Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
various prices based on the label on the tank.
My guess is that the price differential is caused by liability insurance
and the need to recoup that cost based on the end-use of the gas. The
insurance industry might perceive that aviation oxygen (as a product)
carries the highest risk to the producer / seller, with medical oxygen
less risky, and welding oxygen the lowest risk. Risk in this context
means what sort of incident could happen if the wrong gas is
accidentially sold to the end user, or could happen if the tank fails.
The humidity of compressed oxygen seems to be a red herring. In medical
situations such as the hospital bedside, oxygen supply lines are passed
through a bubbler or some other humidification device to add humidity to
the air. This is a stationary situation where the person is likely to
be on the air supply for an extended period, and humidification is done
more for comfort or to prevent airway irritation than anything else. In
other medical situations (EMS O2 respirator tanks) the air is dry -
because it simply can't supply O2 for an extended period anyways.
And you don't want to get water in your high-pressure tanks anyways - if
only so they don't rust.
Aviation air also can't contain a lot of humidity because (or so the
story goes) the water could freeze at high altitudes and mess up the
supply and metering lines.
So the bottom line is that if you walk into a welding supply store to
buy an oxygen tank, don't let on that you intend to use it to fill your
plane's on-board tank, or you want to make an oxygen tent for your sick
pet. The guy behind the counter will most likely go ape-shit and either
deny your purchase, or force you to buy the more expensive tank -
probably because their insurance company forces them to do that.
The insurance industry plays a far larger role behind the scenes in our
daily lives than we realize. The products we can buy, the services we
use, the way they are delivered or sold to us, etc, exist because the
manufacterers, retails or providers have reached a stable (perhaps even
strained) coexistance with the insurance industry.

Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?

they can and do. Most Midas muffler shops make (concentrate) their own
o2 for the oxy/acy setup.

[George]

Post by LSMFT

Post by Some Guy

Post by Some Guy

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen (...)

And just to be clear -
Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".
And what I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us
right now.
Yes?

To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
percent oxygen.

And what I meant by "way more" was that welding oxygen has a higher
oxygen content (or oxygen concentration) vs ordinary air. So I don't
know why you'd say it's "way less".

Medical oxygen is nearly one hundred percent oxygen.

And likewise for welding oxygen - yes?

Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
discussion).

From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
(Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
various prices based on the label on the tank.
My guess is that the price differential is caused by liability insurance
and the need to recoup that cost based on the end-use of the gas. The
insurance industry might perceive that aviation oxygen (as a product)
carries the highest risk to the producer / seller, with medical oxygen
less risky, and welding oxygen the lowest risk. Risk in this context
means what sort of incident could happen if the wrong gas is
accidentially sold to the end user, or could happen if the tank fails.
The humidity of compressed oxygen seems to be a red herring. In medical
situations such as the hospital bedside, oxygen supply lines are passed
through a bubbler or some other humidification device to add humidity to
the air. This is a stationary situation where the person is likely to
be on the air supply for an extended period, and humidification is done
more for comfort or to prevent airway irritation than anything else. In
other medical situations (EMS O2 respirator tanks) the air is dry -
because it simply can't supply O2 for an extended period anyways.
And you don't want to get water in your high-pressure tanks anyways - if
only so they don't rust.
Aviation air also can't contain a lot of humidity because (or so the
story goes) the water could freeze at high altitudes and mess up the
supply and metering lines.
So the bottom line is that if you walk into a welding supply store to
buy an oxygen tank, don't let on that you intend to use it to fill your
plane's on-board tank, or you want to make an oxygen tent for your sick
pet. The guy behind the counter will most likely go ape-shit and either
deny your purchase, or force you to buy the more expensive tank -
probably because their insurance company forces them to do that.
The insurance industry plays a far larger role behind the scenes in our
daily lives than we realize. The products we can buy, the services we
use, the way they are delivered or sold to us, etc, exist because the
manufacterers, retails or providers have reached a stable (perhaps even
strained) coexistance with the insurance industry.

Seems like my dad had a machine that created (or condensed) oxygen from
the air for him to breath. No bottles to change.
Why can't they do that for welding?

They do and they aren't an unusual thing at all to find in a low-medium
usage shop.

[dpb]

Post by Some Guy

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen (...)

...

Post by Some Guy
From what I've been reading tonight, ALL forms of compressed oxygen
(Aviation, Medical, Welding) come from the SAME source (a tank of Liquid
Oxygen - LOX) and are transfered to variously labelled tanks and charged
various prices based on the label on the tank.

...

Post by Some Guy
So the bottom line is that if you walk into a welding supply store to
buy an oxygen tank, don't let on that you intend to use it to fill your
plane's on-board tank, or you want to make an oxygen tent for your sick
pet. ...

The bottom line is how confident do you want to be that what comes out
of that refilled tank is, indeed, fit for breathing purposes and hasn't
been contaminated since that point?

The scenario in the posting link later of a single large bottle
refilling known smaller ones is reasonably well controlled; just taking
the next random welding bottle returned from who knows where...errr, not
so much. As someone else pointed out, you don't know what was done with
those bottles previously nor what has been done since w/o the
certification--that's the role it plays.

As for cost; it's a lot like the "N-stamp" nuclear-grade
components--many of them are, in fact, identical to their non-graded
cousins but they've been through the qualifications to prove their
pedigree; the poor red-headed stepchild _may_ be just as good but
doesn't have the papers to prove it.

--


--

[Some Guy]

Post by dpb
The bottom line is how confident do you want to be that what comes
out of that refilled tank is, indeed, fit for breathing purposes
and hasn't been contaminated since that point?

I presume that the first time that any brand-new O2 bottle is filled
with it's first batch of O2, that it has been cleaned and vacuum
evacuated first.

After that point, unless the air pressure in that tank ever falls below
ambient atmospheric pressure, it's hard to see how anything other than
pure O2 could ever re-enter it - even if it was ever connected to a
manifold system where other bottles of similarly-clean O2 are also
connected.

Post by dpb
The scenario in the posting link later of a single large bottle
refilling known smaller ones is reasonably well controlled; just
taking the next random welding bottle returned from who knows
where...errr, not so much.

I understand that I can buy, or rent, oxy-acetelene tanks. If I buy,
I'm not sure if I can have my bought-tank re-filled and returned to me,
or if I simply exchange it for filled (but used) tank.

If I buy a brand new tank, and if I keep refilling that same tank when I
need more, then I am removing the uncertainty of what could have been in
the tank before it was filled.

And when it comes to refilling returned tanks, is it normal practice to
at least let the tank fully depressurize itself before it's refilled?
Wouldn't that dillute any potential non-oxygen gas or even particulate
contaminent that it *may* have once the tank has been refilled with
known-pure O2?

[Jim Yanik]

Post by Some Guy

Post by Tom Horne

Post by Some Guy

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen (...)

And just to be clear -
Welding oxygen is more (way more) than just compressed "air".
And what I mean by "air" is the stuff that's all around us
right now.
Yes?

To be precise it is way less. The air we breath is roughly twenty
percent oxygen.

And what I meant by "way more" was that welding oxygen has a higher
oxygen content (or oxygen concentration) vs ordinary air. So I don't
know why you'd say it's "way less".

it's "way less" because for a given volume of gas,you get only ONE
element;oxygen,while "air" also gives you
nitrogen,argon,helium,krypton,xenon.
Not that they have any benefit,but it's "more" than what you get with pure
O2. ;-)

[AZ Nomad]

Post by BQ340

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

Nope, they are the same. I see the paramedics at the welding supply
store all the time, getting their bottles filled from the same rack mine
are.

They *can* be the same depending on the store. Welding grade isn't safe
for medical use. Stores often stock only medical grade instead of
maintaining multiple grades.

[Some Guy]

Post by AZ Nomad
They *can* be the same depending on the store. Welding grade isn't
safe for medical use.

Are you aware of any impurities that are present in the generation of
bulk O2 that are specifically removed when "medical" grade O2 is
created?

Post by AZ Nomad
Stores often stock only medical grade instead of maintaining
multiple grades.

Even welding supply stores will stock only "medical grade" oxygen?

You people might want to read this:

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182079-1.html

[Jay Hanig]

Post by Some Guy
Even welding supply stores will stock only "medical grade" oxygen?
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182079-1.html

*That* was a great article. The writer has great credibility to my
mind, as I am a registered nurse, former scuba instructor, and former
commercial pilot. I thought I knew a lot about oxygen. It turns out I
wasn't as well informed as I had assumed.

You guys really need to read this if you're interested in compressed
oxygen in any form.



Jay

[Pete C.]

Post by Jay Hanig

Post by Some Guy
Even welding supply stores will stock only "medical grade" oxygen?
http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182079-1.html

*That* was a great article. The writer has great credibility to my
mind, as I am a registered nurse, former scuba instructor, and former
commercial pilot. I thought I knew a lot about oxygen. It turns out I
wasn't as well informed as I had assumed.
You guys really need to read this if you're interested in compressed
oxygen in any form.
Jay

The purity standard for welding O2 is higher than the purity standard
for medical O2. In reality all three normal grades you can get, welding,
medical and aviator exceed all of the standards. Only the analytical
grade is higher purity.

[AZ Nomad]

Post by Pete C.
The purity standard for welding O2 is higher than the purity standard
for medical O2. In reality all three normal grades you can get, welding,
medical and aviator exceed all of the standards. Only the analytical
grade is higher purity.

Nope. Why don't you look it up, starting with 1) the percentage of oxygen
and ending with 2) the levels of impurities.

You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes but you can use medical O2
for welding.

[Some Guy]

Post by AZ Nomad
Nope. Why don't you look it up, starting with 1) the percentage
of oxygen and ending with 2) the levels of impurities.

Like I just said, the presence of impurities does not necessarily equate
to medical safety or have a health impact. If those impurities are
nitrogen or water vapor, then what exactly are the health implications
of those? We freeking breath them all the time - in concentrations
several orders of magnitude higher than what could possibly exist in a
tank of welding O2.

Post by AZ Nomad
You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes

Says who?

A lawyer? Or a biochemist?

[g***@aol.com]

Post by Some Guy

Post by AZ Nomad
Nope. Why don't you look it up, starting with 1) the percentage
of oxygen and ending with 2) the levels of impurities.

Like I just said, the presence of impurities does not necessarily equate
to medical safety or have a health impact. If those impurities are
nitrogen or water vapor, then what exactly are the health implications
of those? We freeking breath them all the time - in concentrations
several orders of magnitude higher than what could possibly exist in a
tank of welding O2.

Living in a place where 15-20% of my neighbors are dragging an oxygen
cylinder I will say if there is contamination it will be in the
tubing, not in the gas.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Some Guy
Like I just said, the presence of impurities does not necessarily equate
to medical safety or have a health impact. If those impurities are
nitrogen or water vapor, then what exactly are the health implications
of those?

But if the analysis does not say what the impurities are, you are trading on
dangerous ground. That welding tank may have been used along with any
other gas used in industrial environments.

Post by Some Guy

Post by AZ Nomad
You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes

Says who?
A lawyer? Or a biochemist?

Lawyers and other sensible people that do not know what other gas may be in
there. Oxygen falls into the same type of situation ad drugs. The active
ingredients of a pill are often a small percentage of the tablet, the rest
being inert ingredients. There are regulations on what those inert
ingredients can be. There are regulations on how they are handled.

If I was dying in an emergency situation from lack of oxygen, I'd grab any
tank available. If I was at home with COPD, I'd want to be sure that tank
was handled in a proper manner and would not make me worse off.

[Pete C.]

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy
Like I just said, the presence of impurities does not necessarily equate
to medical safety or have a health impact. If those impurities are
nitrogen or water vapor, then what exactly are the health implications
of those?

But if the analysis does not say what the impurities are, you are trading on
dangerous ground. That welding tank may have been used along with any
other gas used in industrial environments.

Post by Some Guy

Post by AZ Nomad
You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes

Says who?
A lawyer? Or a biochemist?

Lawyers and other sensible people that do not know what other gas may be in
there. Oxygen falls into the same type of situation ad drugs. The active
ingredients of a pill are often a small percentage of the tablet, the rest
being inert ingredients. There are regulations on what those inert
ingredients can be. There are regulations on how they are handled.
If I was dying in an emergency situation from lack of oxygen, I'd grab any
tank available. If I was at home with COPD, I'd want to be sure that tank
was handled in a proper manner and would not make me worse off.

You're stuck on old paranoia based on information that is decades out of
date. All of the O2 purity grades specify no more than 0.05% impurities,
and the most lax of the standards is the medical / aviator grade. The
reality is that all the grades are filled from the same cryo O2 source
and all are better than 99.99% pure O2.

[AZ Nomad]

Post by Pete C.

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy
Like I just said, the presence of impurities does not necessarily equate
to medical safety or have a health impact. If those impurities are
nitrogen or water vapor, then what exactly are the health implications
of those?

But if the analysis does not say what the impurities are, you are trading on
dangerous ground. That welding tank may have been used along with any
other gas used in industrial environments.

Post by Some Guy

Post by AZ Nomad
You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes

Says who?
A lawyer? Or a biochemist?

Lawyers and other sensible people that do not know what other gas may be in
there. Oxygen falls into the same type of situation ad drugs. The active
ingredients of a pill are often a small percentage of the tablet, the rest
being inert ingredients. There are regulations on what those inert
ingredients can be. There are regulations on how they are handled.
If I was dying in an emergency situation from lack of oxygen, I'd grab any
tank available. If I was at home with COPD, I'd want to be sure that tank
was handled in a proper manner and would not make me worse off.

You're stuck on old paranoia based on information that is decades out of
date. All of the O2 purity grades specify no more than 0.05% impurities,
and the most lax of the standards is the medical / aviator grade. The
reality is that all the grades are filled from the same cryo O2 source
and all are better than 99.99% pure O2.

Again, you ignore impurities and only look at the O2 percentage.

[Pete C.]

Post by AZ Nomad

Post by Pete C.

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy
Like I just said, the presence of impurities does not necessarily equate
to medical safety or have a health impact. If those impurities are
nitrogen or water vapor, then what exactly are the health implications
of those?

But if the analysis does not say what the impurities are, you are trading on
dangerous ground. That welding tank may have been used along with any
other gas used in industrial environments.

Post by Some Guy

Post by AZ Nomad
You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes

Says who?
A lawyer? Or a biochemist?

Lawyers and other sensible people that do not know what other gas may be in
there. Oxygen falls into the same type of situation ad drugs. The active
ingredients of a pill are often a small percentage of the tablet, the rest
being inert ingredients. There are regulations on what those inert
ingredients can be. There are regulations on how they are handled.
If I was dying in an emergency situation from lack of oxygen, I'd grab any
tank available. If I was at home with COPD, I'd want to be sure that tank
was handled in a proper manner and would not make me worse off.

You're stuck on old paranoia based on information that is decades out of
date. All of the O2 purity grades specify no more than 0.05% impurities,
and the most lax of the standards is the medical / aviator grade. The
reality is that all the grades are filled from the same cryo O2 source
and all are better than 99.99% pure O2.

Again, you ignore impurities and only look at the O2 percentage.

So provide a cite to your claimed impurity information, and what
impurity present at 0.001% concentration in the O2 is such a hazard.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Pete C.
You're stuck on old paranoia based on information that is decades out of
date. All of the O2 purity grades specify no more than 0.05% impurities,
and the most lax of the standards is the medical / aviator grade. The
reality is that all the grades are filled from the same cryo O2 source
and all are better than 99.99% pure O2.

I know how a medical tank was handled. I don't know anything abut a welding
tank. The oxygen may be pure going in, but I don't know what was in the
tank beforehand.

I'm not stuck on decades information, my son owns a medical supply company
that supplies oxygen. I worked part time for him filling tanks and
delivering LOX. We followed the regulations on medical oxygen. You are
free to breath whatever you like though.

[Pete C.]

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Pete C.
You're stuck on old paranoia based on information that is decades out of
date. All of the O2 purity grades specify no more than 0.05% impurities,
and the most lax of the standards is the medical / aviator grade. The
reality is that all the grades are filled from the same cryo O2 source
and all are better than 99.99% pure O2.

I know how a medical tank was handled. I don't know anything abut a welding
tank. The oxygen may be pure going in, but I don't know what was in the
tank beforehand.

The gas suppliers are not about to fill 2,000 PSI+ of pure O2 on top of
some amount of unknown gas in the welding tank, that would be dangerous
for them.

Post by Ed Pawlowski
I'm not stuck on decades information, my son owns a medical supply company
that supplies oxygen. I worked part time for him filling tanks and
delivering LOX. We followed the regulations on medical oxygen. You are
free to breath whatever you like though.

You follow your insurance / liability regulations, which do not in any
way relate to the actual safety of using the "welding" O2 vs. "medical"
O2, and have not been updated in decades.

[Some Guy]

I know how a medical tank was handled. I don't know anything about
a welding tank. The oxygen may be pure going in, but I don't know
what was in the tank beforehand.

So you are speculating that the average compressed-gas retailer or
supplier does not perform the same steps to evacuate / clean / what-ever
/ a welding tank that he (or you) does with a medical tank.

I'm not stuck on decades information, my son owns a medical supply
company that supplies oxygen.

So you have a vested interest to maintain the impression that the
average citizen shouldn't or can't use less expensive welding oxygen
tanks in place of "medical" certified tanks for breathing or as a
respiratory aid.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Some Guy

I know how a medical tank was handled. I don't know anything about
a welding tank. The oxygen may be pure going in, but I don't know
what was in the tank beforehand.

So you are speculating that the average compressed-gas retailer or
supplier does not perform the same steps to evacuate / clean / what-ever
/ a welding tank that he (or you) does with a medical tank.

I'm not speculalting; you are. I said I did not know but you are trying to
twist that. . Please don't lower yourself that way; it is not very
becoming. .

Post by Some Guy

I'm not stuck on decades information, my son owns a medical supply
company that supplies oxygen.

So you have a vested interest to maintain the impression that the
average citizen shouldn't or can't use less expensive welding oxygen
tanks in place of "medical" certified tanks for breathing or as a
respiratory aid.

I have a vested interest in supplying proper care for patients. I'm not
maintaining any impression, I'm dealing with facts.
If it does not have that piece of paper, it is not medical oxygen. By
supplying anything else, a supplier can be sued, can lose accreditation. I
have a vested interest in complying with regulations. Use what you want,
but you won't get it from me. Nor will your insurance company pay for it if
not in compliance.

I know what is in medical oxygen and can trace the source. Until you can do
the same with welding oxygen, it is now allowed for patient use, now matter
how much you say it is the same. FWIW, the actual cost of oxygen has
little bearing on the cost of supplying it to a patient at home. It has no
bearing on how much a supplier is paid by Medicare or insurance,as that is a
fixed amount. They give the supplier $XX per month to cover the oxygen and
all associated supplies and costs. Some patient se 2X or 3X of others, butt
he amount paid is the same. If we could supply welding O2, it would be more
profitable, not less.

[Some Guy]

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy

Post by Ed Pawlowski
I know how a medical tank was handled. I don't know anything
about a welding tank. The oxygen may be pure going in, but I
don't know what was in the tank beforehand.

So you are speculating that the average compressed-gas retailer
or supplier does not perform the same steps to evacuate / clean
/ what-ever / a welding tank that he (or you) does with a medical
tank.

I'm not speculalting; you are.

I've never stated either why what I think is done to returned welding
tanks prior to getting refilled.

The worst case situation is to assume that no special treatment is done
to them. They are simply connected to a compressor and they are
re-charged with O2, and probably using the same equipment, the same
valves and lines and the same source of O2 that are used to fill all O2
tanks that are sold or rented at that site, which could be for welding,
medical, or aviation use.

Post by Ed Pawlowski
I said I did not know but you are trying to twist that. .

I said several times that you are proceeding from a point of view that
the handling and processing of returned welding tanks IS different from
that of medical tanks.

Let me ask you this:

If, hypothetically speaking, a compressed-gas supplier handled and
processed ALL returned O2 cylinders the same way (both welding and
medical cylinders) - which is to say that they are always cleaned,
evaculated, etc, according to medical-grade specifications, then what
would be your argument that an end-user shouldn't purchase a tank of
"welding grade" O2 for their own medical or veterinary purposes from
that supplier?

Post by Ed Pawlowski
If it does not have that piece of paper, it is not medical oxygen.

I agree that selling a tank of welding O2 to someone as a medical-grade
tank of O2 (and charging medical-grade prices) is wrong and probably
violates all sorts of laws and insurance policies.

But we are not talking specifically about that situation (product
fraud).

If I buy welding O2 specifically for medical purposes, I agree that I am
taking some sort of risk that I have no recourse or remedy for should
the tank contain some harmful impurity. But I'm not convinced that a
medical tank has a lower probability of containing a harmful impurity
compared to a welding tank. The difference is that when I pay more for
a medical tank, I am in effect buying an insurance policy that allows me
to seek financial compensation. Perhaps I see no value in that
additional cost if the odds of any tank (welding or medical) containing
a harmful impurity are extremely low.

[g***@aol.com]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2010 11:47:13 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy
Like I just said, the presence of impurities does not necessarily equate
to medical safety or have a health impact. If those impurities are
nitrogen or water vapor, then what exactly are the health implications
of those?

But if the analysis does not say what the impurities are, you are trading on
dangerous ground. That welding tank may have been used along with any
other gas used in industrial environments.

I imagine they evacuate any tank they are going to put oxygen in, just
for the reasons you mention.
It wouldn't take much of any fuel gas in there to make an oxygen
explode like a bomb.
Have you ever seen a balloon full of oxygen and acetylene go up?
One the size of a bowling ball will rattle windows blocks away and
that is just a balloon. Imagine that being a steel tank.

[Harry K]

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy
Like I just said, the presence of impurities does not necessarily equate
to medical safety or have a health impact.  If those impurities are
nitrogen or water vapor, then what exactly are the health implications
of those?

But if the analysis does not say what the impurities are, you are trading on
dangerous ground.   That welding tank may have been used along with any
other gas used in industrial environments.

Post by Some Guy

Post by AZ Nomad
You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes

Says who?
A lawyer?  Or a biochemist?

Lawyers and other sensible people that do not know what other gas may be in
there.  Oxygen falls into the same type of situation ad drugs.  The active
ingredients of a pill are often a small percentage of the tablet, the rest
being inert ingredients.  There are regulations on what those inert
ingredients can be.  There are regulations on how they are handled.
If I was dying in an emergency situation from lack of oxygen, I'd grab any
tank available. If I was at home with COPD, I'd want to be sure that tank
was handled in a proper manner and would not make me worse off.

exactly as I was taught in First Aid. Any tank of oxy (be sure it is
oxy and not just compressed air) will do in an emergency but use
medical for extended periods.

Harry K

[Pete C.]

Post by AZ Nomad

Post by Pete C.
The purity standard for welding O2 is higher than the purity standard
for medical O2. In reality all three normal grades you can get, welding,
medical and aviator exceed all of the standards. Only the analytical
grade is higher purity.

Nope. Why don't you look it up, starting with 1) the percentage of oxygen
and ending with 2) the levels of impurities.
You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes but you can use medical O2
for welding.

Nope, exactly the opposite.

[AZ Nomad]

Post by Pete C.

Post by AZ Nomad

Post by Pete C.
The purity standard for welding O2 is higher than the purity standard
for medical O2. In reality all three normal grades you can get, welding,
medical and aviator exceed all of the standards. Only the analytical
grade is higher purity.

Nope. Why don't you look it up, starting with 1) the percentage of oxygen
and ending with 2) the levels of impurities.
You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes but you can use medical O2
for welding.

Nope, exactly the opposite.

Your assertion is in direct opposition to purity standards especially
those regarding impurities.

Why don't you make a slight attempt to educate yourself?

[Pete C.]

Post by AZ Nomad

Post by Pete C.

Post by AZ Nomad

Post by Pete C.
The purity standard for welding O2 is higher than the purity standard
for medical O2. In reality all three normal grades you can get, welding,
medical and aviator exceed all of the standards. Only the analytical
grade is higher purity.

Nope. Why don't you look it up, starting with 1) the percentage of oxygen
and ending with 2) the levels of impurities.
You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes but you can use medical O2
for welding.

Nope, exactly the opposite.

Your assertion is in direct opposition to purity standards especially
those regarding impurities.
Why don't you make a slight attempt to educate yourself?

Why don't you do some research? I actually use O2 regularly, both for
welding / cutting as well as for breathing and nitrox blending. I'm well
aware of the fact that the welding O2 purity standard is tighter than
the standard for medical O2, as well as the fact that all grades of O2
from any of the large gas suppliers exceeds both the welding and medical
purity standards by a significant margin.

[AZ Nomad]

Post by Pete C.

Post by AZ Nomad

Post by Pete C.

Post by AZ Nomad

Post by Pete C.
The purity standard for welding O2 is higher than the purity standard
for medical O2. In reality all three normal grades you can get, welding,
medical and aviator exceed all of the standards. Only the analytical
grade is higher purity.

Nope. Why don't you look it up, starting with 1) the percentage of oxygen
and ending with 2) the levels of impurities.
You can't use welding O2 for medical purposes but you can use medical O2
for welding.

Nope, exactly the opposite.

Your assertion is in direct opposition to purity standards especially
those regarding impurities.
Why don't you make a slight attempt to educate yourself?

Why don't you do some research? I actually use O2 regularly, both for
welding / cutting as well as for breathing and nitrox blending. I'm well
aware of the fact that the welding O2 purity standard is tighter than
the standard for medical O2, as well as the fact that all grades of O2
from any of the large gas suppliers exceeds both the welding and medical
purity standards by a significant margin.

It isn't. Read on impurities, not just the main percentage of O2.

[George]

Post by BQ340

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

Nope, they are the same. I see the paramedics at the welding supply
store all the time, getting their bottles filled from the same rack mine
are.
MikeB

Next time watch the significant difference on how medical use vs other
tanks are filled. Any medical use tanks are first evacuated to insure
there is nothing else in the tank before it is filled.

[Some Guy]

Post by George
Next time watch the significant difference on how medical use vs
other tanks are filled. Any medical use tanks are first evacuated
to insure there is nothing else in the tank before it is filled.

How exactly could something get into the tank in the first place?

If it's connected to a manifold system, then yes, the gas from a
higher-pressure tank could flow into it. But doesn't that
higher-pressure tank already contain known-pure O2?

If it's never connected to a manifold system or to another tank, then
how exactly could something get into it? Deliberate tampering?

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Some Guy

Post by George
Next time watch the significant difference on how medical use vs
other tanks are filled. Any medical use tanks are first evacuated
to insure there is nothing else in the tank before it is filled.

How exactly could something get into the tank in the first place?
If it's connected to a manifold system, then yes, the gas from a
higher-pressure tank could flow into it. But doesn't that
higher-pressure tank already contain known-pure O2?
If it's never connected to a manifold system or to another tank, then
how exactly could something get into it? Deliberate tampering?

Temperature changes. If you have an open tank and let the gas inside
expand, then contract, it will draw in outside air, moisture, or whatever.
Leave that tank long enough and you can get all sorts of contamination, not
all of which is harmful, but it would still not meet medical criteria.

[HeyBub]

Post by Some Guy

Post by George
Next time watch the significant difference on how medical use vs
other tanks are filled. Any medical use tanks are first evacuated
to insure there is nothing else in the tank before it is filled.

How exactly could something get into the tank in the first place?
If it's connected to a manifold system, then yes, the gas from a
higher-pressure tank could flow into it. But doesn't that
higher-pressure tank already contain known-pure O2?
If it's never connected to a manifold system or to another tank, then
how exactly could something get into it? Deliberate tampering?

If the other tank contained, say, acetylene.

[g***@aol.com]

Post by HeyBub

Post by Some Guy

Post by George
Next time watch the significant difference on how medical use vs
other tanks are filled. Any medical use tanks are first evacuated
to insure there is nothing else in the tank before it is filled.

How exactly could something get into the tank in the first place?
If it's connected to a manifold system, then yes, the gas from a
higher-pressure tank could flow into it. But doesn't that
higher-pressure tank already contain known-pure O2?
If it's never connected to a manifold system or to another tank, then
how exactly could something get into it? Deliberate tampering?

If the other tank contained, say, acetylene.

Acetylene in an oxygen tank is a bomb.
It could get contaminated by bacteria from the "breathing" that
happens when you leave the valve open but most real welders will turn
the tank back in with a little pressure in it, Same for SCUBA folks.

[Jay Hanig]

Post by g***@aol.com
Acetylene in an oxygen tank is a bomb.
It could get contaminated by bacteria from the "breathing" that
happens when you leave the valve open but most real welders will turn
the tank back in with a little pressure in it, Same for SCUBA folks.

You typically never allow the pressure to drop to zero because higher
pressure in the tank is the only way to keep ambient moisture from
entering the tank. Ultimately it's to keep the tank from rusting on the
inside.




Jay

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Jay Hanig

Post by g***@aol.com
Acetylene in an oxygen tank is a bomb.
It could get contaminated by bacteria from the "breathing" that
happens when you leave the valve open but most real welders will turn
the tank back in with a little pressure in it, Same for SCUBA folks.

You typically never allow the pressure to drop to zero because higher
pressure in the tank is the only way to keep ambient moisture from
entering the tank. Ultimately it's to keep the tank from rusting on the
inside.
Jay

That is exactly why medical oxygen thanks have to be evacuated. Rare that
one would come back with any pressure at all.

[Some Guy]

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Jay Hanig
You typically never allow the pressure to drop to zero because
higher pressure in the tank is the only way to keep ambient
moisture from entering the tank. Ultimately it's to keep the
tank from rusting on the inside.

That is exactly why medical oxygen thanks have to be evacuated.
Rare that one would come back with any pressure at all.

I would think the contrary.

O2 tanks used by hospitals are more likely to be part of a manifold
system, and as such will always be maintained at some positive pressure
by virtue of the fact that at least one of their "gang-mates" is likely
to have enough excess pressure to keep them partially pressurized.

If a gang of O2 tanks at a hospital collectively fall below some
acceptible level of pressure, then they're no longer useful as an air
souce and MUST be changed out. So again the argument here is that
medical O2 tanks are MORE likely to be returned while still containing
some positive pressure charge.

If the strongest argument so far is that a "medical-grade" tank of O2
has lived it's life with minimal to zero infiltration of atmospheric
humidity (or even nitrogen) compared to a welding tank, then that's a
pretty weak argument to say that a tank of welding O2 is unhealthy to
breath. Last I checked, we all take in some some water vapor and
nitrogen when we breath standard air.

In other words, a lack of "purity" does not equal unhealthy or hazardous
for human breathing. A lack of purity (it seems) will degrade welding
performance, maybe mess up equipment, etc.

And so far, it's just been pure speculation here that tanks of welding
O2 are *not* evacuated prior to filling, just as supposedly medical
tanks are.

[The Daring Dufas]

Post by Some Guy

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Jay Hanig
You typically never allow the pressure to drop to zero because
higher pressure in the tank is the only way to keep ambient
moisture from entering the tank. Ultimately it's to keep the
tank from rusting on the inside.

That is exactly why medical oxygen thanks have to be evacuated.
Rare that one would come back with any pressure at all.

I would think the contrary.
O2 tanks used by hospitals are more likely to be part of a manifold
system, and as such will always be maintained at some positive pressure
by virtue of the fact that at least one of their "gang-mates" is likely
to have enough excess pressure to keep them partially pressurized.
If a gang of O2 tanks at a hospital collectively fall below some
acceptible level of pressure, then they're no longer useful as an air
souce and MUST be changed out. So again the argument here is that
medical O2 tanks are MORE likely to be returned while still containing
some positive pressure charge.
If the strongest argument so far is that a "medical-grade" tank of O2
has lived it's life with minimal to zero infiltration of atmospheric
humidity (or even nitrogen) compared to a welding tank, then that's a
pretty weak argument to say that a tank of welding O2 is unhealthy to
breath. Last I checked, we all take in some some water vapor and
nitrogen when we breath standard air.
In other words, a lack of "purity" does not equal unhealthy or hazardous
for human breathing. A lack of purity (it seems) will degrade welding
performance, maybe mess up equipment, etc.
And so far, it's just been pure speculation here that tanks of welding
O2 are *not* evacuated prior to filling, just as supposedly medical
tanks are.

I can see a huge LOX tank next to a main traffic artery in the Southside
neighborhood of Birmingham where UAB Hospital is located. Tanker trucks
pull up next to the thing and fill it on a regular basis. The
maintenance guys who work for the complex tell me there are tunnels all
around under the place filled with all sorts of conduits and pipes that
distribute various electrons, liquids and gases that keep the hospital
alive. I imagine that LOX tank supplies O2 to the whole hospital and
perhaps a couple of different hospitals in the same general area. The
hospitals share doctors, why not oxygen?

TDD

[Some Guy]

Post by The Daring Dufas
I can see a huge LOX tank next to a main traffic artery in the
Southside neighborhood of Birmingham where UAB Hospital is located.

LOX is a different situation. It requires a cryogenic storage tank, and
perhaps on-site re-compression to boost the pressure of the O2 that's
vaporized from the LOX as needed.

We're talking about the bottled O2 that's sold under variously-labelled
end-uses by the compressed gas retailer, and whether or not there's any
*real* negative health implications when using welding O2 gas instead of
"medical" O2 gas in a residential setting.

[The Daring Dufas]

Post by Some Guy

Post by The Daring Dufas
I can see a huge LOX tank next to a main traffic artery in the
Southside neighborhood of Birmingham where UAB Hospital is located.

LOX is a different situation. It requires a cryogenic storage tank, and
perhaps on-site re-compression to boost the pressure of the O2 that's
vaporized from the LOX as needed.
We're talking about the bottled O2 that's sold under variously-labelled
end-uses by the compressed gas retailer, and whether or not there's any
*real* negative health implications when using welding O2 gas instead of
"medical" O2 gas in a residential setting.

It wouldn't surprise me if the LOX tank is used to fill portable tanks
for patient use. I'll have to ask one of my friends who works
maintenance at the hospital.

TDD

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by The Daring Dufas
It wouldn't surprise me if the LOX tank is used to fill portable tanks
for patient use. I'll have to ask one of my friends who works maintenance
at the hospital.
TDD

LOX tanks fill LOX tanks. They can be filled for patient use of that is
what their supplier gives them. They are a different setup that using
compressed O2 though. Different tanks, regulators, etc. They are not
usually filled at hospital though, but by independent providers.

Compressed tanks either need mechanical pumps or, most home medical
suppliers use a cascade system of tanks increasing pressure into the smaller
tanks with each on up the line.

[The Daring Dufas]

Post by The Daring Dufas
It wouldn't surprise me if the LOX tank is used to fill portable tanks
for patient use. I'll have to ask one of my friends who works
maintenance at the hospital.
TDD

LOX tanks fill LOX tanks. They can be filled for patient use of that is
what their supplier gives them. They are a different setup that using
compressed O2 though. Different tanks, regulators, etc. They are not
usually filled at hospital though, but by independent providers.
Compressed tanks either need mechanical pumps or, most home medical
suppliers use a cascade system of tanks increasing pressure into the
smaller tanks with each on up the line.

Hummmm, so you say LOX can't be allowed to boil off into O2 gas and
be distributed all over a hospital campus or used to fill portable
O2 tanks? UAB hospital has several hospitals next door. The VA, the
county hospital, The Eye Foundation and several clinics are all on
the same street. Many are connected by skywalks so I have to believe
they share resources.

TDD

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by The Daring Dufas

Post by Ed Pawlowski
Compressed tanks either need mechanical pumps or, most home medical
suppliers use a cascade system of tanks increasing pressure into the
smaller tanks with each on up the line.

Hummmm, so you say LOX can't be allowed to boil off into O2 gas and
be distributed all over a hospital campus or used to fill portable
O2 tanks?

No, not what I said, It is done often for use, but not for filling tanks.
What I did was is that the oxygen coming off of the LOX is not of sufficient
pressure to fill a compressed tank, you need mechanical pumps to assist.
There are small tanks that can be filled with LOX from big tanks and that is
allowed for local use or portables. You are confusing two different forms
of O2 and the equipment used for them.


UAB hospital has several hospitals next door. The VA, the

Post by The Daring Dufas
county hospital, The Eye Foundation and several clinics are all on
the same street. Many are connected by skywalks so I have to believe
they share resources.

I doubt they have a central tank to go that distance, but I've not seen it.
Post photos or drawings of the layout when you get them.

[The Daring Dufas]

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by The Daring Dufas

Post by Ed Pawlowski
Compressed tanks either need mechanical pumps or, most home medical
suppliers use a cascade system of tanks increasing pressure into the
smaller tanks with each on up the line.

Hummmm, so you say LOX can't be allowed to boil off into O2 gas and
be distributed all over a hospital campus or used to fill portable
O2 tanks?

No, not what I said, It is done often for use, but not for filling
tanks. What I did was is that the oxygen coming off of the LOX is not of
sufficient pressure to fill a compressed tank, you need mechanical pumps
to assist. There are small tanks that can be filled with LOX from big
tanks and that is allowed for local use or portables. You are confusing
two different forms of O2 and the equipment used for them.
UAB hospital has several hospitals next door. The VA, the

Post by The Daring Dufas
county hospital, The Eye Foundation and several clinics are all on
the same street. Many are connected by skywalks so I have to believe
they share resources.

I doubt they have a central tank to go that distance, but I've not seen
it. Post photos or drawings of the layout when you get them.

I'll see what I can find out from some of the guys who work there. If
I take pictures, the UAB police may tackle me as a terrorism suspect.
I may drive by with my camera this week.

TDD

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Some Guy

Post by Ed Pawlowski
That is exactly why medical oxygen thanks have to be evacuated.
Rare that one would come back with any pressure at all.

I would think the contrary.
O2 tanks used by hospitals are more likely to be part of a manifold
system, and as such will always be maintained at some positive pressure
by virtue of the fact that at least one of their "gang-mates" is likely
to have enough excess pressure to keep them partially pressurized.

You think wrong. Medical oxygen is used in many places aside from
hospitals. Thousands of bottle every day are used in private homes. They
are single size, no manifolds, They are generally used until empty.
Valves are left open, regulators removed. They are sometimes stored in poor
environments, must basements, trunk of a car, under the sink, laundry room.

Post by Some Guy
If the strongest argument so far is that a "medical-grade" tank of O2
has lived it's life with minimal to zero infiltration of atmospheric
humidity (or even nitrogen) compared to a welding tank, then that's a
pretty weak argument to say that a tank of welding O2 is unhealthy to
breath. Last I checked, we all take in some some water vapor and
nitrogen when we breath standard air.
In other words, a lack of "purity" does not equal unhealthy or hazardous
for human breathing. A lack of purity (it seems) will degrade welding
performance, maybe mess up equipment, etc.
And so far, it's just been pure speculation here that tanks of welding
O2 are *not* evacuated prior to filling, just as supposedly medical
tanks are.

Not speculation. I've filled tanks. I followed the regulations.

[Kurt Ullman]

Post by Ed Pawlowski
You think wrong. Medical oxygen is used in many places aside from
hospitals. Thousands of bottle every day are used in private homes. They
are single size, no manifolds, They are generally used until empty.
Valves are left open, regulators removed. They are sometimes stored in poor
environments, must basements, trunk of a car, under the sink, laundry room.

Which is why there are requirements for cleaning the tanks before
filling. After that, you are on your own. Same with medicines, etc. They
have to be manufactured and stored pre-patient to certain conditions.

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy
And so far, it's just been pure speculation here that tanks of welding
O2 are *not* evacuated prior to filling, just as supposedly medical
tanks are.

Not speculation. I've filled tanks. I followed the regulations.

Interestingly enough, this thread has gone on for as long as it has
w/o anyone mentioning the main danger of non-medical oxygen... That the
insurance company won't pay for it (g).

[Some Guy]

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy
O2 tanks used by hospitals are more likely to be part of a
manifold system, and as such will always be maintained at
some positive pressure by virtue of the fact that at least
one of their "gang-mates" is likely to have enough excess
pressure to keep them partially pressurized.

You think wrong. Medical oxygen is used in many places aside from
hospitals. Thousands of bottle every day are used in private
homes.

Even the large tanks (5-foot tall) are used in homes?

Post by Ed Pawlowski
They are single size, no manifolds, They are generally used
until empty. Valves are left open, regulators removed.
They are sometimes stored in poor environments, must basements,
trunk of a car, under the sink, laundry room.

So what you're saying is that welding tanks are probably safer - because
they're not as exposed to such nasty conditions and situations as the
home-use medical tanks are? And welding tanks are more likely to be
returned with some positive pressure - as opposed to home-use medical
tanks as you have just described?

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy
And so far, it's just been pure speculation here that tanks
of welding O2 are *not* evacuated prior to filling, just as
supposedly medical tanks are.

Not speculation. I've filled tanks. I followed the regulations.

So go further and tell us if welding tanks are, or are not, evacuated
prior to being refilled.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Some Guy

Post by Ed Pawlowski
You think wrong. Medical oxygen is used in many places aside from
hospitals. Thousands of bottle every day are used in private
homes.

Even the large tanks (5-foot tall) are used in homes?

Yes. sometimes. That is an "H" tank. Most home uses is smaller "D" tanks.
D and E tanks are generally used as portables or for emergency backup if a
concentrator fails or if there is a power failure.

Post by Some Guy
So what you're saying is that welding tanks are probably safer - because
they're not as exposed to such nasty conditions and situations as the
home-use medical tanks are? And welding tanks are more likely to be
returned with some positive pressure - as opposed to home-use medical
tanks as you have just described?

Show me where I said industrial tanks are not exposed to nasty conditions.

Post by Some Guy

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy
And so far, it's just been pure speculation here that tanks
of welding O2 are *not* evacuated prior to filling, just as
supposedly medical tanks are.

Not speculation. I've filled tanks. I followed the regulations.

So go further and tell us if welding tanks are, or are not, evacuated
prior to being refilled.

I worked with medical, not industrial so I don't know the answer, nor do I
care. Medical oxygen comes with paperwork. That makes it different and the
only way it can be used for a patient. Think what you want, but unless it
is medical grade, no oxygen supplier is going to give a tank to a patient.

[The Daring Dufas]

Post by Some Guy

You think wrong. Medical oxygen is used in many places aside from
hospitals. Thousands of bottle every day are used in private
homes.

Even the large tanks (5-foot tall) are used in homes?

Yes. sometimes. That is an "H" tank. Most home uses is smaller "D"
tanks. D and E tanks are generally used as portables or for emergency
backup if a concentrator fails or if there is a power failure.

Post by Some Guy
So what you're saying is that welding tanks are probably safer - because
they're not as exposed to such nasty conditions and situations as the
home-use medical tanks are? And welding tanks are more likely to be
returned with some positive pressure - as opposed to home-use medical
tanks as you have just described?

Show me where I said industrial tanks are not exposed to nasty conditions.

Post by Some Guy

Post by Some Guy
And so far, it's just been pure speculation here that tanks
of welding O2 are *not* evacuated prior to filling, just as
supposedly medical tanks are.

Not speculation. I've filled tanks. I followed the regulations.

So go further and tell us if welding tanks are, or are not, evacuated
prior to being refilled.

I worked with medical, not industrial so I don't know the answer, nor do
I care. Medical oxygen comes with paperwork. That makes it different and
the only way it can be used for a patient. Think what you want, but
unless it is medical grade, no oxygen supplier is going to give a tank
to a patient.

A fellow I know works on X-ray equipment and said the 50 cent bolt from
HD or Lowe's costs $25 if it's for one of his X-ray machines. The reason
being a stack of paperwork required for each little part. Is it
an exaggeration? I don't know but I know someone who does and I may have
to drop by and ask him.

TDD

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by The Daring Dufas
A fellow I know works on X-ray equipment and said the 50 cent bolt from
HD or Lowe's costs $25 if it's for one of his X-ray machines. The reason
being a stack of paperwork required for each little part. Is it
an exaggeration? I don't know but I know someone who does and I may have
to drop by and ask him.
TDD

I don't know if that is exactly the cost, but it sure is going to be higher.
Anything needing certification or to meet military specs is higher. In the
McMaster catalog a 1/4-20 stainless bolt can be 14¢ to meet ASTM specs and
becomes 94¢ to meet a MIL spec.

[notbob]

Post by Ed Pawlowski
I don't know if that is exactly the cost, but it sure is going to be higher.
Anything needing certification or to meet military specs is higher. In the
McMaster catalog a 1/4-20 stainless bolt can be 14¢ to meet ASTM specs and
becomes 94¢ to meet a MIL spec.

Just like food grade propane! ;)

nb

[AZ Nomad]

Post by notbob

Post by Ed Pawlowski
I don't know if that is exactly the cost, but it sure is going to be higher.
Anything needing certification or to meet military specs is higher. In the
McMaster catalog a 1/4-20 stainless bolt can be 14¢ to meet ASTM specs and
becomes 94¢ to meet a MIL spec.

Just like food grade propane! ;)

You need to quit sniffing the stuff.

[Harry K]

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

Yes there is a difference according to my first aid training (years
ago). You can use in the case of emergency. It is IIRC too dry to
use for extended periods (I should have paid more attention to that
discussion).

Harry K

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain purity,
welding does not. You pay for that test and the potential liability that
goes along with it.

[Some Guy]

Post by Ed Pawlowski
Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
purity, welding does not.

How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?

Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?

Or does the Medical oxygen tank look nicer and cleaner than the Welding
oxygen tank?

Post by Ed Pawlowski
You pay for that test and the potential liability that goes
along with it.

I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
product (the product being compressed oxygen). The product itself is no
more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Some Guy

Post by Ed Pawlowski
Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
purity, welding does not.

How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?
Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?

The content of bottled oxygen is not 100% pure. It is 99.xxx% pure. That
other tiny amount can be anything in the atmosphere or it can be some
contaminant from the bottle. I used to work with medical oxygen and every
batch had a certification giving the purity.

Post by Some Guy
Or does the Medical oxygen tank look nicer and cleaner than the Welding
oxygen tank?

Post by Ed Pawlowski
You pay for that test and the potential liability that goes
along with it.

I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
product (the product being compressed oxygen).

That is what I just said above.

Post by Some Guy
The product itself is no
more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.

It has a step that does not have to be taken with welding oxygen.
Certification. O2 tanks have been contaminated in the past. Rare, but it
has happened. Filling my own tanks, I'd not be concerned about using
welding oxygen, but I'm not so quick to grab a tank off the back of a truck
at a job site and start breathing it. If you get the certification with
welding grade, then it is the same. That piece of paper is worth a lot of
money if there ever was a problem.

[g***@aol.com]

On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 00:47:07 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy

Post by Ed Pawlowski
Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
purity, welding does not.

How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?
Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?

The content of bottled oxygen is not 100% pure. It is 99.xxx% pure. That
other tiny amount can be anything in the atmosphere or it can be some
contaminant from the bottle. I used to work with medical oxygen and every
batch had a certification giving the purity.

Post by Some Guy
Or does the Medical oxygen tank look nicer and cleaner than the Welding
oxygen tank?

Post by Ed Pawlowski
You pay for that test and the potential liability that goes
along with it.

I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
product (the product being compressed oxygen).

That is what I just said above.

Post by Some Guy
The product itself is no
more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.

It has a step that does not have to be taken with welding oxygen.
Certification. O2 tanks have been contaminated in the past. Rare, but it
has happened. Filling my own tanks, I'd not be concerned about using
welding oxygen, but I'm not so quick to grab a tank off the back of a truck
at a job site and start breathing it. If you get the certification with
welding grade, then it is the same. That piece of paper is worth a lot of
money if there ever was a problem.

I buy lots of oxygen from the welding store and the label always says
USP grade. I have never seen any other kind. The answer is on the
label tho.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by g***@aol.com
I buy lots of oxygen from the welding store and the label always says
USP grade. I have never seen any other kind. The answer is on the
label tho.

That is because the oxygen itself it USP grade. One difference I forgot to
mention. Filling procedure. You can fill a welding grade bottle by making
the connection, opening the valve, and filling. When filling medical
bottles, they must be emptied, hooked to a vacuum pump and evacuated, then
filled.

Welding grade can be used in many ways by many different people. You can
hook it to a manifold along with other gasses. If the cylinder pressure
drops below what other gas on that manifold it, it can be back-fed some of
the other gas and contaminated.

[g***@aol.com]

On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 07:46:10 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by g***@aol.com
I buy lots of oxygen from the welding store and the label always says
USP grade. I have never seen any other kind. The answer is on the
label tho.

That is because the oxygen itself it USP grade. One difference I forgot to
mention. Filling procedure. You can fill a welding grade bottle by making
the connection, opening the valve, and filling. When filling medical
bottles, they must be emptied, hooked to a vacuum pump and evacuated, then
filled.
Welding grade can be used in many ways by many different people. You can
hook it to a manifold along with other gasses. If the cylinder pressure
drops below what other gas on that manifold it, it can be back-fed some of
the other gas and contaminated.

If it is labeled USP, it has to be medical grade or someone will be
sued. BTW if you go in the back of a hospital you will see "welding"
bottles hooked up to their system.
It is more expensive to have 2 types of oxygen at the welding store
than to just have one.
They have to watch contaminants, just for safety. In the presence of
pure oxygen, lots of things you think are pretty safe, become
explosive. Try some steel wool.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by g***@aol.com
If it is labeled USP, it has to be medical grade or someone will be
sued. BTW if you go in the back of a hospital you will see "welding"
bottles hooked up to their system.

Not only have I looked at the back of the hospital, I've hooked up the
bottles. I've also filled thousands of bottles for medical use. Every one
has a tag with the purity listed and usually a traceability batch number.
Oxygen is oxygen, but unless it has proper certification, it is not for
medical use.

The content may be the same, but the paperwork is not. Without the proper
paperwork, it is not medical grade.

[g***@aol.com]

On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 14:06:58 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by g***@aol.com
If it is labeled USP, it has to be medical grade or someone will be
sued. BTW if you go in the back of a hospital you will see "welding"
bottles hooked up to their system.

Not only have I looked at the back of the hospital, I've hooked up the
bottles. I've also filled thousands of bottles for medical use. Every one
has a tag with the purity listed and usually a traceability batch number.
Oxygen is oxygen, but unless it has proper certification, it is not for
medical use.
The content may be the same, but the paperwork is not. Without the proper
paperwork, it is not medical grade.

... even if they come out of the same batch of bottles.

I guarantee you that if you find contamination in a bottle marked USP
you have an actionable case. I agree the smaller bottles may be filled
on site and do not carry the USP label so you get what you get.
You put your finger on it, if you want them to write all the tracking
numbers on a certification sheet, they will charge you more but that
is for the lawyers, not the patients. The gas is the same.

[jeff_wisnia]

Post by g***@aol.com
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 07:46:10 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by g***@aol.com
I buy lots of oxygen from the welding store and the label always says
USP grade. I have never seen any other kind. The answer is on the
label tho.

That is because the oxygen itself it USP grade. One difference I forgot to
mention. Filling procedure. You can fill a welding grade bottle by making
the connection, opening the valve, and filling. When filling medical
bottles, they must be emptied, hooked to a vacuum pump and evacuated, then
filled.
Welding grade can be used in many ways by many different people. You can
hook it to a manifold along with other gasses. If the cylinder pressure
drops below what other gas on that manifold it, it can be back-fed some of
the other gas and contaminated.

If it is labeled USP, it has to be medical grade or someone will be
sued. BTW if you go in the back of a hospital you will see "welding"
bottles hooked up to their system.
It is more expensive to have 2 types of oxygen at the welding store
than to just have one.
They have to watch contaminants, just for safety. In the presence of
pure oxygen, lots of things you think are pretty safe, become
explosive. Try some steel wool.

Fine steel wool will burn pretty darn well in air too.

About 25 years ago one of my toddlers managed to touch some fine steel
wool across the terminals of a 9 volt "transistor radio" battery which
set the steel wool ablaze. The kid wasn't harmed, but I had to replace a
kitchen floor vinyl tile. <G>

Jeff

[Harry K]

Post by Some Guy

Certification.  Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
purity, welding does not.

How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?
Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?

The content of bottled oxygen is not 100% pure.  It is 99.xxx% pure.  That
other tiny amount can be anything in the atmosphere or it can be some
contaminant from the bottle.    I used to work with medical oxygen and every
batch had a certification giving the purity.

Post by Some Guy
Or does the Medical oxygen tank look nicer and cleaner than the Welding
oxygen tank?

You pay for that test and the potential liability that goes
along with it.

I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
product (the product being compressed oxygen).

That is what I just said above.

Post by Some Guy
The product itself is no
more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.

It has a step that does not have to be taken with welding oxygen.
Certification.  O2 tanks have been contaminated in the past.  Rare, but it
has happened.   Filling my own tanks, I'd not be concerned about using
welding oxygen, but I'm not so quick to grab a tank off the back of a truck
at a job site and start breathing it.  If you get the certification with
welding grade, then it is the same.  That piece of paper is worth a lot of
money if there ever was a problem.

One must differentiate between the "oxygen" tanks (that contain pure
oxygen) and the tanks used in the breathing apparatuses - those
contain just compressed air with the usual nitrogen, co2, etc. still
in it. The 'grab a tank off the back of a truck" implies tanks for
the SCBAs - air, not oxygen.

Harry K

[Pete C.]

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy

Post by Ed Pawlowski
Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
purity, welding does not.

How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?
Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?

The content of bottled oxygen is not 100% pure. It is 99.xxx% pure. That
other tiny amount can be anything in the atmosphere or it can be some
contaminant from the bottle. I used to work with medical oxygen and every
batch had a certification giving the purity.

Post by Some Guy
Or does the Medical oxygen tank look nicer and cleaner than the Welding
oxygen tank?

Post by Ed Pawlowski
You pay for that test and the potential liability that goes
along with it.

I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
product (the product being compressed oxygen).

That is what I just said above.

Post by Some Guy
The product itself is no
more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.

It has a step that does not have to be taken with welding oxygen.
Certification. O2 tanks have been contaminated in the past. Rare, but it
has happened. Filling my own tanks, I'd not be concerned about using
welding oxygen, but I'm not so quick to grab a tank off the back of a truck
at a job site and start breathing it. If you get the certification with
welding grade, then it is the same. That piece of paper is worth a lot of
money if there ever was a problem.

Medical 99.95% pure
Welding 99.99% pure

[Some Guy]

Post by Pete C.
Medical 99.95% pure
Welding 99.99% pure

Here's the problem I have with that.

What is the compressed gas supplier doing differently that would result
in that very slight (but consistent?) difference between those two
products?

If he has two machines or processes for creating the two products
(welding O2 and medical O2) and if the welding O2 product is more
"pure", then why would he operate two processes instead of simply using
a single process (the higher purity process) to create *both* of them?
Especially since the welding product is retailed at a lower price to
start with.

[Pete C.]

Post by Some Guy

Post by Pete C.
Medical 99.95% pure
Welding 99.99% pure

Here's the problem I have with that.
What is the compressed gas supplier doing differently that would result
in that very slight (but consistent?) difference between those two
products?
If he has two machines or processes for creating the two products
(welding O2 and medical O2) and if the welding O2 product is more
"pure", then why would he operate two processes instead of simply using
a single process (the higher purity process) to create *both* of them?
Especially since the welding product is retailed at a lower price to
start with.

They aren't doing anything different, those are the *standards*, not the
actual product spec. The reality is that both grades (actually four
since there is an "aviator" grade and an "analytical" grade as well) are
filled from the same cryo tanks and both exceed the 99.99% welding grade
standard. Only the analytical grade gets extra attention to ensure it is
99.999% pure.

[Some Guy]

Post by Pete C.

Post by Some Guy
What is the compressed gas supplier doing differently that would
result in that very slight (but consistent?) difference between
those two products?

They aren't doing anything different, those are the *standards*,
not the actual product spec. The reality is that both grades are
filled from the same cryo tanks and both exceed the 99.99% welding
grade standard.

So how is it known that these gasses meet this 99.99% spec?

Are they tested?

Or are they compressed with equipment that is known to NOT inject
contaminents during pressurization?

Much of what is speculated here is not with the "purity" of the source
gas, or the compentency of the compression equipment to maintain that
purity as a tank is being pressurized, but with what *might* happen with
these tanks when in the hands of end-users as they reach their empty
state prior to being returned to be reused.

Seems that some people here are hung up on that point, and we are all
speculating as to just what the gas retailer does behind the scenes with
these returned tanks prior to refilling them.

[Pete C.]

Post by Some Guy

Post by Pete C.

Post by Some Guy
What is the compressed gas supplier doing differently that would
result in that very slight (but consistent?) difference between
those two products?

They aren't doing anything different, those are the *standards*,
not the actual product spec. The reality is that both grades are
filled from the same cryo tanks and both exceed the 99.99% welding
grade standard.

So how is it known that these gasses meet this 99.99% spec?
Are they tested?

The source cryo tanks certainly are.

Post by Some Guy
Or are they compressed with equipment that is known to NOT inject
contaminents during pressurization?

The same equipment is used to fill all "grades" of cylinders.

Post by Some Guy
Much of what is speculated here is not with the "purity" of the source
gas, or the compentency of the compression equipment to maintain that
purity as a tank is being pressurized, but with what *might* happen with
these tanks when in the hands of end-users as they reach their empty
state prior to being returned to be reused.
Seems that some people here are hung up on that point, and we are all
speculating as to just what the gas retailer does behind the scenes with
these returned tanks prior to refilling them.

The gas suppliers are not about to fill 2,000 PSI+ of pure O2 on top of
some amount of mystery gas in the "welding" cylinder, especially since
those "welding" cylinders are typically used in conjunction with a fuel
gas. Putting pure O2 on top of some inadvertently transfilled Acetylene,
propylene, propane, etc. would not be a healthy thing for the workers at
the gas plant.

[Some Guy]

Post by Pete C.

Post by Some Guy
Much of what is speculated here is not with the "purity" of the
source gas, or the compentency of the compression equipment to
maintain that purity as a tank is being pressurized, but with
what *might* happen with these tanks when in the hands of end-
users as they reach their empty state prior to being returned
to be reused.
Seems that some people here are hung up on that point, and we
are all speculating as to just what the gas retailer does
behind the scenes with these returned tanks prior to refilling
them.

The gas suppliers are not about to fill 2,000 PSI+ of pure O2
on top of some amount of mystery gas in the "welding" cylinder,

While that sounds logical, just saying it is not going to satisfy others
unless more concrete proof is posted to show that the average compressed
gas retailer or supplier performs the same processes and proceedures on
all types of returned cylinders (evacuation, internal cleaning, etc)
prior to refilling.

But I still submit that many of their arguments as to just how these
tanks can become contaminated in the first place is implausible.

[Kurt Ullman]

Post by Some Guy
While that sounds logical, just saying it is not going to satisfy others
unless more concrete proof is posted to show that the average compressed
gas retailer or supplier performs the same processes and proceedures on
all types of returned cylinders (evacuation, internal cleaning, etc)
prior to refilling.

Actually all that is needed is to know that the FDA and other
agencies require certain additional tests to be performed and paperwork
filled out before something can be called medical oxygen. Under these
laws you cannot knowingly sell non-medical Oxygen for medical purposes
and the insurance company sure as heck won't pay for it.
If the question is can someone go to the local Ox-shop, tell the
person they want welding oxygen, take it home and use it for medical,
yeah. Just like you can use medications for off-label uses, but you take
on extra risks by doing that.

[Pete C.]

Post by Kurt Ullman
If the question is can someone go to the local Ox-shop, tell the
person they want welding oxygen, take it home and use it for medical,
yeah. Just like you can use medications for off-label uses, but you take
on extra risks by doing that.

The chief extra risk is that someone will claim that the welding O2 will
kill you for some nebulous reason. I guess the medial O2 atoms are
different from the welding O2 atoms.

[Steve B]

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy

Post by Ed Pawlowski
Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
purity, welding does not.

How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?
Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?

The content of bottled oxygen is not 100% pure. It is 99.xxx% pure. That
other tiny amount can be anything in the atmosphere or it can be some
contaminant from the bottle. I used to work with medical oxygen and
every batch had a certification giving the purity.

Post by Some Guy
Or does the Medical oxygen tank look nicer and cleaner than the Welding
oxygen tank?

Post by Ed Pawlowski
You pay for that test and the potential liability that goes
along with it.

I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
product (the product being compressed oxygen).

That is what I just said above.

Post by Some Guy
The product itself is no
more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.

It has a step that does not have to be taken with welding oxygen.
Certification. O2 tanks have been contaminated in the past. Rare, but it
has happened. Filling my own tanks, I'd not be concerned about using
welding oxygen, but I'm not so quick to grab a tank off the back of a
truck at a job site and start breathing it. If you get the certification
with welding grade, then it is the same. That piece of paper is worth a
lot of money if there ever was a problem.

When I was a commercial deep sea diver, the oxygen we used in decompression
chambers was the same oxygen that we used for OA cutting. We did not use
medical oxygen.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.

[Pete C.]

Post by Steve B

Post by Ed Pawlowski

Post by Some Guy

Post by Ed Pawlowski
Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
purity, welding does not.

How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?
Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?

The content of bottled oxygen is not 100% pure. It is 99.xxx% pure. That
other tiny amount can be anything in the atmosphere or it can be some
contaminant from the bottle. I used to work with medical oxygen and
every batch had a certification giving the purity.

Post by Some Guy
Or does the Medical oxygen tank look nicer and cleaner than the Welding
oxygen tank?

Post by Ed Pawlowski
You pay for that test and the potential liability that goes
along with it.

I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
product (the product being compressed oxygen).

That is what I just said above.

Post by Some Guy
The product itself is no
more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.

It has a step that does not have to be taken with welding oxygen.
Certification. O2 tanks have been contaminated in the past. Rare, but it
has happened. Filling my own tanks, I'd not be concerned about using
welding oxygen, but I'm not so quick to grab a tank off the back of a
truck at a job site and start breathing it. If you get the certification
with welding grade, then it is the same. That piece of paper is worth a
lot of money if there ever was a problem.

When I was a commercial deep sea diver, the oxygen we used in decompression
chambers was the same oxygen that we used for OA cutting. We did not use
medical oxygen.

I've seen this as well, just one big rack of "welding" O2 cylinders,
grab one for cutting, or grab one for the hyperbaric chamber, all the
same.

[Kurt Ullman]

Post by Some Guy

Post by Ed Pawlowski
Certification. Medical oxygen has to be certified to a certain
purity, welding does not.

How exactly can compressed oxygen be "impure" ?
Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?

No, but other gasses can be introduced. Even the compressors for the
regular air firefighters have to be carefully maintained. Oils, etc.,
can be introduced that cause failure of the seals. There are many things
that can go wrong, although that is more of a conern with how the tank
is filled.

Post by Some Guy
I think you pay more for medical and aviation O2 because the
consequences can be more expensive if there is a problem with the
product (the product being compressed oxygen). The product itself is no
more expensive or different or has any additional processing steps done
to it on the basis of it's sale in it's variously-labelled forms.

At least for medical oxygen you pay more because the tests and
tracking requirements of medical oxygen is more expensive. These are
additional processing steps (at least the testing and certification).
The O2 is probably not more expensive, but the medical part is.

[Some Guy]

Post by Kurt Ullman

Post by Some Guy
Are some oxygen molecules more pure than other oxygen molecules?

No, but other gasses can be introduced. Even the compressors for
the regular air firefighters have to be carefully maintained. Oils,
etc., can be introduced that cause failure of the seals.

Do compressed air suppliers have different compressors for filling
different O2 bottles from their bulk LOX source supply?

Hasn't it already been mentioned that even welding O2 gas needs to be
just as clean as medical-grade O2?

Post by Kurt Ullman
At least for medical oxygen you pay more because the tests and
tracking requirements of medical oxygen is more expensive.

I'm not convinced that there are any such tests.

Paperwork and barcode scanning? Yes, sure. I can see that. But unless
someone posts something indicating that such "testing" is done, then I
think it's pure speculation that there is this testing step.

Post by Kurt Ullman
These are additional processing steps (at least the
testing and certification).

Testing is the same as certification. So what are these additional
processing steps beyond testing?

Do you work at a compressed air supply company?

[Steve Barker]

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

it's the same.

[Doug Miller]

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from people
who actually know the difference.

[Steve Barker]

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from people
who actually know the difference.

i read the responses. It's the same.

[AZ Nomad]

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from people
who actually know the difference.

i read the responses. It's the same.

It *can* be the same. However, oxygen graded for welding, but not
for medical use, isn't safe for medical use.

Wether or not a store sells medical grade oxygen to welders is up
to the store and not universally true.

[Doug Miller]

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from people
who actually know the difference.

i read the responses. It's the same.

So the people who said it's not the same are wrong?

[Jim Yanik]

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous
impurities, etc, that would render welding oxygen insufficient (or
even dangerous) for helping to supplement breathing / respiration
?

it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from
people who actually know the difference.

i read the responses. It's the same.

So the people who said it's not the same are wrong?

the people who said they're different said it a long time ago when they
actually were different.
Times have changed,they no longer actually are different.

did you not read the article cited? it was very informative.

[Doug Miller]

Post by Jim Yanik

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous
impurities, etc, that would render welding oxygen insufficient (or
even dangerous) for helping to supplement breathing / respiration
?

it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from
people who actually know the difference.

i read the responses. It's the same.

So the people who said it's not the same are wrong?

the people who said they're different said it a long time ago when they
actually were different.
Times have changed,they no longer actually are different.

Uh-huh. Right. Welding oxygen is certified just as pure as medical oxygen, no
contaminants. Suuuurrrrre it is. That's why they use welding oxygen in
hospitals.

[g***@aol.com]

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Jim Yanik

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous
impurities, etc, that would render welding oxygen insufficient (or
even dangerous) for helping to supplement breathing / respiration
?

it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from
people who actually know the difference.

i read the responses. It's the same.

So the people who said it's not the same are wrong?

the people who said they're different said it a long time ago when they
actually were different.
Times have changed,they no longer actually are different.

Uh-huh. Right. Welding oxygen is certified just as pure as medical oxygen, no
contaminants. Suuuurrrrre it is. That's why they use welding oxygen in
hospitals.

YMMV but every gas distributer I have dealt with sells medical grade
oxygen if you get the big tanks. (80s and the little Prestolite kit
ones usually are not)
They all come out of the same stack.
As I have said here a number of times READ THE FUCKING LABEL.
If is just says oxygen, that is all you can count on.
If it says USP oxygen, it IS medical grade. That is what USP means.
They would be in deep shit if they cheated on that. It would be a
violation of federal law among other things. All that paperwork Ed was
talking about does is give the lawyers a traceable path when they want
to bring those charges and file those suits.

[Jay Hanig]

Post by Doug Miller
Uh-huh. Right. Welding oxygen is certified just as pure as medical oxygen, no
contaminants. Suuuurrrrre it is. That's why they use welding oxygen in
hospitals.

There is a LOT of shit done in hospitals simply because that is the way
they've always done it. To suggest otherwise to them will get you a
look that suggests you've lost your mind.

I deal with policies all the time that closer examination would reveal
are outdated and kind of stupid if you consider the current realities.
But the Powers That Be know what they know and nobody can tell them
different. So we still do what we've always done.... because we've
always done it that way.

A lawyer would probably make a big deal about "welding" oxygen instead
of USP in much the same way the US Navy made a big deal about the
captain of the USS Indianapolis not zigzaging when his ship was
torpedoed. The commander of the Japanese submarine testified at his
court martial that it wouldn't have mattered one way or the other; he
still would have nailed him. The Navy didn't care... because policy
stated you should always zigzag when submarines might be around. After
all, they'd always done it that way.

Many of the folks who determine these policies are dinosaurs, and about
as current.




Jay

[Pete C.]

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Jim Yanik

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs
medical oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous
impurities, etc, that would render welding oxygen insufficient (or
even dangerous) for helping to supplement breathing / respiration
?

it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from
people who actually know the difference.

i read the responses. It's the same.

So the people who said it's not the same are wrong?

the people who said they're different said it a long time ago when they
actually were different.
Times have changed,they no longer actually are different.

Uh-huh. Right. Welding oxygen is certified just as pure as medical oxygen, no
contaminants. Suuuurrrrre it is. That's why they use welding oxygen in
hospitals.

As has been noted many times already, the welding grade purity standard
is higher than that for the medical grade. People who do not know
anything about welding think it's some low standards dirty process, but
that is simply not the reality. Impurities in O2 that are harmless for
human use, will cause welds to fail inspections.

Welding O2 standard 99.99% pure O2
Medical O2 standard 99.95% pure O2

The reality is that the actual product in the cylinders is closer to
99.999% pure, the analytical grade standard.

[Pete C.]

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this thread from people
who actually know the difference.

Yes, it's the same. Anything to the contrary is "urban legend" or hype
for the purpose of charging more for the same stuff. All the O2 grades,
including the five nines analytical grade are filled from the same cryo
tanks, and only the analytical grade gets any extra testing to ensure
the 99.999% spec. The reality is that the welding O2 purity standard
(99.99%) is higher than the medical O2 purity standard (99.95%), and
that the actual product from the gas suppliers exceeds those purity
standards by a wide margin.

[Twayne]

Post by Pete C.

Post by Doug Miller

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen
vs medical oxygen as far as purity, concentration,
hazardous impurities, etc, that would render welding
oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping to
supplement breathing / respiration ?

it's the same.

Ummm..... no, it's not. Read the other responses in this
thread from people who actually know the difference.

Yes, it's the same. Anything to the contrary is "urban
legend" or hype for the purpose of charging more for the
same stuff. All the O2 grades, including the five nines
analytical grade are filled from the same cryo tanks, and
only the analytical grade gets any extra testing to ensure
the 99.999% spec. The reality is that the welding O2 purity
standard (99.99%) is higher than the medical O2 purity
standard (99.95%), and that the actual product from the gas
suppliers exceeds those purity standards by a wide margin.

Amazing: All those posts, guesses and "sound good" types mostly, for a
question that's so easily answered with a search engine that it's actually
pathetic. This is precsely why groups like this have such low crediblity and
high drift rates.

[AZ Nomad]

Post by Steve Barker

Post by Some Guy
Is there any difference between a tank of welding oxygen vs medical
oxygen as far as purity, concentration, hazardous impurities, etc, that
would render welding oxygen insufficient (or even dangerous) for helping
to supplement breathing / respiration ?

it's the same.

no it isn't