Is this baby snake coiled up outside a gopher snake or a rattler?

Post by Danny D
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13218290/img/13218290.gif

Here's a shot of the head after capturing in a bucket:
Loading Image...

And of the tail:
Loading Image...

It's in a bucket, slightly worse for the wear as I had to use
garden tools to capture it alive; but I don't want to hurt it;
I just want to identify it.

The babies are harder to identify than the adults:
- Triangular head vs slender head
- Slit eyes vs round eyes
- Rattle vs fake rattle
etc.

Oren

2013-06-02 21:23:30 UTC

Post by Danny D
It's in a bucket, slightly worse for the wear as I had to use
garden tools to capture it alive; but I don't want to hurt it;
I just want to identify it.

Danny,

Stop messing with this viper. It can kill you, I'm being serious about
this.

A bite from a pigmy rattler would not kill you as fast as this snake
you are playing with.

STOP feeding it rats from the pool heater an get a ... gun?

You can buy hand gun "snake shot" for this purpose.

Oren

2013-06-02 21:13:02 UTC

Post by Danny D
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13218290/img/13218290.gif
Can you tell if it's a rattler or a gopher snake?
I don't want to hurt a gopher snake - but I can't see the eyes.
Will try to get a better shot ...

Danny,

Kill that snake RIGHT now. Shoot it. Rattlers can bite you because
they reach out and coil back, longer than the body length.

This is a venomous viper, rattler. Vipers have a head shaped like a
triangle

Nevada has one that looks the same, said as one of most deadly
rattlers in the country. (we have other rattlers)

Is THIS snake there to eat the rats you have in the pool heater?

Kill it or CALL an expert. Hide the children!!

Do not fu ck around with this snake.

It should have bit you when you took the photo.

Red

2013-06-02 21:41:16 UTC

Danny,
Kill that snake RIGHT now. Shoot it. Rattlers can bite you because
they reach out and coil back, longer than the body length.
This is a venomous viper, rattler. Vipers have a head shaped like a
triangle
Nevada has one that looks the same, said as one of most deadly
rattlers in the country. (we have other rattlers)
Is THIS snake there to eat the rats you have in the pool heater?
Kill it or CALL an expert. Hide the children!!
Do not fu ck around with this snake.
It should have bit you when you took the photo.

CHOOT IT!! CHOOT THE CHIT OUT OF IT!!!

Oren

2013-06-02 22:36:36 UTC

Post by Red

Post by Oren
It should have bit you when you took the photo.

CHOOT IT!! CHOOT THE CHIT OUT OF IT!!!

CHOOT it again, hurry.

Danny D

2013-06-02 21:51:37 UTC

Post by Oren
Kill that snake RIGHT now. Shoot it. Rattlers can bite you

I try not to kill anything I don't have to; so I put it in a
spare blue bucket with a secure top, and will take it a
few acres away and let it go.
Loading Image...

Thanks for the identification help; when they're adults,
they're easier to tell (because of the rattle) but young
ones are harder (the rattle is smaller).

I've seen gopher snakes with similar markings (and a similar
fake rattle, but they have more slender heads and round eyes).

I still haven't gotten a good look at the eyes (slit vs
round) but I do agree the head shape could be pit viper.

Thanks.

DD_BobK

2013-06-02 22:07:27 UTC

Post by Oren
Kill that snake RIGHT now. Shoot it. Rattlers can bite you

I try not to kill anything I don't have to; so I put it in a
spare blue bucket with a secure top, and will take it a
few acres away and let it go.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13218972/img/13218972.jpg
Thanks for the identification help; when they're adults,
they're easier to tell (because of the rattle) but young
ones are harder (the rattle is smaller).
I've seen gopher snakes with similar markings (and a similar
fake rattle, but they have more slender heads and round eyes).
I still haven't gotten a good look at the eyes (slit vs
round) but I do agree the head shape could be pit viper.
Thanks.

DADD-

This is not a "could be a pit viper" situation.....
Are you going to play around until someone gets hurt?

btw.. it can still effectively strike even if the eyes are closed or
in darkness.... the special talent of pit vipers.

Ever heard of the "Sidewinder" (AIM-9) air to air missile?
There's a reason for that name.

Oren

2013-06-03 00:03:24 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
Are you going to play around until someone gets hurt?

Kid runs to the doctor, saying his friend was snake bit on his penis.

Doc says lance the fang marks with an X cut and suck the poison out.

Runs back to his friend, anxiously waiting for help. "What did the
doctor say, the stricken one asked.

His friend kindly replied: "You're gonna die mother fucker!"

Post by DD_BobK
btw.. it can still effectively strike even if the eyes are closed or
in darkness.... the special talent of pit vipers.

They detect heat and can strike on that impulse.

Danny D

2013-06-03 00:19:11 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
btw.. it can still effectively strike even if the eyes are closed or
in darkness.... the special talent of pit vipers.

They detect heat and can strike on that impulse.

I didn't think snakes can actually close their eyes though...

Oren

2013-06-03 01:01:02 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
btw.. it can still effectively strike even if the eyes are closed or
in darkness.... the special talent of pit vipers.

They detect heat and can strike on that impulse.

I didn't think snakes can actually close their eyes though...

They can still strike when shedding skin. Think of a "cataract" over
the eye. A slight degree of blindness.

DD_BobK

2013-06-03 03:06:06 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
btw.. it can still effectively strike even if the eyes are closed or
in darkness.... the special talent of pit vipers.

They detect heat and can strike on that impulse.

I didn't think snakes can actually close their eyes though...

Wanna do the experiment & let us know your findings?

Oren

2013-06-03 03:21:56 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
btw.. it can still effectively strike even if the eyes are closed or
in darkness.... the special talent of pit vipers.

They detect heat and can strike on that impulse.

I didn't think snakes can actually close their eyes though...

Wanna do the experiment & let us know your findings?

People wrongfully think a snake cannot bite you underwater.

Yes they can. Dive into a nest of Cottonmouths.

Rattlers, like this case, swim with heads and tail rattlers above
water surface level

They keep their rattler buttons dry...the early warning device.

DD_BobK

2013-06-03 03:27:20 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
Are you going to play around until someone gets hurt?

Kid runs to the doctor, saying his friend was snake bit on his penis.
Doc says lance the fang marks with an X cut and suck the poison out.
Runs back to his friend, anxiously waiting for help. "What did the
doctor say, the stricken one asked.
His friend kindly replied: "You're gonna die mother fucker!"

Post by DD_BobK
btw.. it can still effectively strike even if the eyes are closed or
in darkness.... the special talent of pit vipers.

They detect heat and can strike on that impulse.

Yup! They have steroscopic heat sensing...

I sure there's a YouTube video of a pit viper strike on a rodent in
the dark.
I'll see if I can find one. No luck.. :(

from the shallow end of the gene pool

Oren

2013-06-03 15:52:34 UTC

Post by DD_BobK

Post by Oren
They detect heat and can strike on that impulse.

Yup! They have steroscopic heat sensing...
I sure there's a YouTube video of a pit viper strike on a rodent in
the dark.
I'll see if I can find one. No luck.. :(
from the shallow end of the gene pool
http://youtu.be/bMENpr3vtlM

Crazy. Striking without a head.

...
_Bill Haast and King Cobra, the Polio Project, circa 1951_

Danny D

2013-06-04 05:56:37 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
from the shallow end of the gene pool
http://youtu.be/bMENpr3vtlM

I was embarrassed for the people who posted that video,
but, it *was* interesting to see the headless snake make
that all-too-familiar sudden lunge toward the people
tugging on the tail at the 1:14 time point.

That's great reflexes!

Frank

2013-06-02 22:15:15 UTC

Post by Oren
Kill that snake RIGHT now. Shoot it. Rattlers can bite you

I've personally never seen a rattler but from tail it is obvious to me.

DD_BobK

2013-06-02 22:16:07 UTC

Post by Oren
Kill that snake RIGHT now. Shoot it. Rattlers can bite you

If you're going relocate vs kill....

here's more info

http://www.livingalongsidewildlife.com/2012/11/rattlesnakes-in-my-yard-is-relocation.html

Danny D

2013-06-02 23:07:57 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
If you're going relocate vs kill....
here's more info

Very nice article. Thanks.

That article recommends, if you're gonna relocate,
somewhere close by, so, luckily, the place I relocate
my rattlers to is only a few hundred yards away.

I let them loose on a steep slope deep in a ravine,
where no people travel (it's where I cut a 500 yard tunnel
through the poison oak a couple of years ago - so I can
easily walk it, but most people don't).

Danny D

2013-06-02 23:31:47 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
here's more info

I contacted the author of DD_BobK's reference, Dr. David A. Steen,
who is a Post-doctoral Research Associate at the Department of
Fish and Wildlife Conservation at the Virginia Polytechnic Institute.

He confirmed it's a rattler and he provided some advice on
relocating it safely. He also asked for more pictures, so
I'll be sending them to him soon as he wants to publish them.

Thanks for the helpful advice!

Oren

2013-06-03 00:18:47 UTC

Post by Danny D
I contacted the author of DD_BobK's reference, Dr. David A. Steen,
who is a Post-doctoral Research Associate at the Department of
Fish and Wildlife Conservation at the Virginia Polytechnic Institute.
He confirmed it's a rattler and he provided some advice on
relocating it safely. He also asked for more pictures, so
I'll be sending them to him soon as he wants to publish them.

Dang. I knew it was a rattler. I never spent any money on the
education level he must have.

One time a jury determined that a fish was a fowl. It had a gizzard
and while jumping from the water, it was trying to fly. Evolution.

The man was acquitted of illegal fishing.

Naples, Collier County, Florida.

DD_BobK

2013-06-03 03:28:57 UTC

Dang. I knew it was a rattler. I never spent any money on the
education level he must have.
One time a jury determined that a fish was a fowl. It had a gizzard
and while jumping from the water, it was trying to fly. Evolution.
The man was acquitted of illegal fishing.
Naples, Collier County, Florida.

It's called experinece & common sense,

New project for DD

http://strikerattleroll.blogspot.com/2011/06/robosquirrel.html

DD_BobK

2013-06-02 22:18:00 UTC

Post by Oren
Kill that snake RIGHT now. Shoot it. Rattlers can bite you

Our tax dollars at work

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn74119.html

Danny D

2013-06-02 23:20:26 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn74119.html

Hmmm... based on that article, I think I misidentified the
"loreal pit".

I think I identified the nostril as the pit in this pic:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13219210/img/13219210.jpg

Do you see the pit in that picture?

DD_BobK

2013-06-03 03:01:57 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn74119.html

Hmmm... based on that article, I think I misidentified the
"loreal pit".
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13219210/img/13219210.jpg
Do you see the pit in that picture?

Yes... I met my first set of rattlesnakes in the eastern foothills of
OC in the 60's.
I know exactly what they look like and I have no desire to "visit"
them up close in the real world.

Oren

2013-06-02 22:50:18 UTC

Post by Danny D
I try not to kill anything I don't have to; so I put it in a
spare blue bucket with a secure top, and will take it a
few acres away and let it go.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13218972/img/13218972.jpg

Cut the head off at the first white ring behind the head. Keep the
head away from yourself, potential poison possibilities.

Skin the snake, cure the hide and make a wallet, belt or hat band.

Deep fry the white meat after it is gutted and washed.

A few acres away is not good enough when they come to your house and
eat rats. You cut the forest land they live in.

The snake is there for the food supply.

Guv Bob

2013-06-05 21:04:48 UTC

Post by Oren
Kill that snake RIGHT now. Shoot it. Rattlers can bite you

I try not to kill anything I don't have to; so I put it in a
spare blue bucket with a secure top, and will take it a
few acres away and let it go.

You're an idiot.

Post by Danny D
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/13218972/img/13218972.jpg
Thanks for the identification help; when they're adults,
they're easier to tell (because of the rattle) but young
ones are harder (the rattle is smaller).
I've seen gopher snakes with similar markings (and a similar
fake rattle, but they have more slender heads and round eyes).
I still haven't gotten a good look at the eyes (slit vs
round) but I do agree the head shape could be pit viper.
Thanks.

Danny D

2013-06-05 21:39:13 UTC

Post by Guv Bob

Post by Danny D
I try not to kill anything I don't have to;

You're an idiot.

Why?

Oren

2013-06-05 22:19:15 UTC

Post by Guv Bob
You're an idiot.

Why?

"Y" is a crooked letter

Guv Bob

2013-06-06 04:17:15 UTC

Post by Guv Bob

Post by Danny D
I try not to kill anything I don't have to;

You're an idiot.

Why?

No offense, Danny. The first thing I thought of when you said you were going to turn it loose was your grandchildren - or any other people, dogs, etc., who happen to walk upon that snake or its offspring wherever you drop it off. A neighbor's son got bite by a rattlesnake and nearly died.

I'm the last one to kill anything. I typically grab spiders and toss the outside rather than swat them. Live and let live is good, but this one is not worth the risk.

Danny D

2013-06-06 07:16:24 UTC

Post by Guv Bob
I'm the last one to kill anything.
I typically grab spiders and toss
the outside rather than swat them.

I find western black widow spiders outside all the time.
If you asked me to, I could snap a picture at will, in daylight, of
one, as they are *that* numerous out here.

And, their venom is reportedly 15x stronger than a rattlesnakes!
(http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/bugs/black-widow-spider)

Still ...

If I killed every one I found, I wouldn't, statistically, make a dent
in their numbers in my yard alone.

Birds, lizards, other spiders, even wasp predation has a greater impact
than anything my puny efforts could accomplish.

So, I don't kill them when I see them.
I consider them part of the "family".

But, I do warn the grandkids to stay away from those particular family
members. There's always one in every family ...

Guv Bob

2013-06-13 01:02:04 UTC

Post by Guv Bob
I'm the last one to kill anything.
I typically grab spiders and toss
the outside rather than swat them.

I find western black widow spiders outside all the time.
If you asked me to, I could snap a picture at will, in daylight, of
one, as they are *that* numerous out here.
And, their venom is reportedly 15x stronger than a rattlesnakes!
(http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/bugs/black-widow-spider)
Still ...
If I killed every one I found, I wouldn't, statistically, make a dent
in their numbers in my yard alone.
Birds, lizards, other spiders, even wasp predation has a greater impact
than anything my puny efforts could accomplish.
So, I don't kill them when I see them.
I consider them part of the "family".
But, I do warn the grandkids to stay away from those particular family
members. There's always one in every family ...

Good intentions, but kids forget quickly or don't believe they will get bit. People are always stepping on snakes that are hard to see against the leaves, etc. I was walking thru the woods with a friend in front and he stepped right over a copperhead without noticing. He could have just as easily stepped on it and gotten bit.

DD_BobK

2013-06-02 21:18:51 UTC

http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13218290/img/13218290.gif
Can you tell if it's a rattler or a gopher snake?
I don't want to hurt a gopher snake - but I can't see the eyes.
Will try to get a better shot ...

DADD-

Short Answer-

That's a rattlesnake.
UFB.... you're dangerous to yourself and others.
Can you not recognize the classic viper shape in an instant?
Don't get out much?

I guess it's better to be lucky than good?
Now what?

Oren

2013-06-02 22:25:46 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
Can you not recognize the classic viper shape in an instant?

>

I've been face to face with a Cottonmouth Water Moccasin (inches). He
ended up being separated by a 30.06 blast

Danny should kill and eat that rattler. Taste like fried chicken, when
fried. Bury the head, venom and fangs way over yonder.

Unquestionably Confused

2013-06-02 23:40:48 UTC

Post by Oren
Danny should kill and eat that rattler. Taste like fried chicken, when
fried. Bury the head, venom and fangs way over yonder.

'scuse me, Oren... but if you put something on my plate that taste "just
like fried chicken," it damn well better BE fried chicken!<g>

Oren

2013-06-03 02:40:25 UTC

Post by Unquestionably Confused

On Sun, 02 Jun 2013 18:40:48 -0500, Unquestionably Confused

Post by Oren
Danny should kill and eat that rattler. Taste like fried chicken, when
fried. Bury the head, venom and fangs way over yonder.

'scuse me, Oren... but if you put something on my plate that taste "just
like fried chicken," it damn well better BE fried chicken!<g>

Oh don't be silly.

I can make gator tai or fresh cooter taste like chicken.

A neighbor from India (?) said the gator tail tasted like fried
shrimp. Then I explained all the details.

The Daring Dufas

2013-06-03 20:23:53 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
Can you not recognize the classic viper shape in an instant?

You can smell a Cottonmouth Water Moccasin. They smell like rotten
meat, so do not move. A brother taught me that. Sure enough, onetime,
one had his head resting on my shoe and I could smell it, like what I
was told.
<http://peterandsharda.com/wp-includes/js/cottonmouth-water-moccasin-venom-i3.jpg>
I've been face to face with a Cottonmouth Water Moccasin (inches). He
ended up being separated by a 30.06 blast
Danny should kill and eat that rattler. Taste like fried chicken, when
fried. Bury the head, venom and fangs way over yonder.

Our family farm on the side of a mountain has two natural springs and
one of them was dug out and a pump house built over it creating an
enclosed 2,000gal cistern. Back in the 1960's I went inside the pump
house and had a Cottonmouth drop from the rafters brushing me on its way
to the pool, it hit the water and took off. I suppose I was lucky
it didn't bite me on the way down. ^_^

TDD

Oren

2013-06-03 20:38:40 UTC

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 15:23:53 -0500, The Daring Dufas

Post by The Daring Dufas
Our family farm on the side of a mountain has two natural springs and
one of them was dug out and a pump house built over it creating an
enclosed 2,000gal cistern. Back in the 1960's I went inside the pump
house and had a Cottonmouth drop from the rafters brushing me on its way
to the pool, it hit the water and took off. I suppose I was lucky
it didn't bite me on the way down. ^_^
TDD

Cottonmouths do climb trees near a shore. Fishing at night, they can
drop right into the boat.

"Do I stay or Do I Go"

Some say folks have shot the bottom of the boat full of holes.

<hilarity ensues>

notbob

2013-06-03 23:07:03 UTC

Post by Oren
Some say folks have shot the bottom of the boat full of holes.
<hilarity ensues>

heh heh..... the double barrel polka! ;)

nb

notbob

2013-06-03 23:17:48 UTC

Post by notbob
heh heh..... the double barrel polka! ;)

....or the 12 ga two-step!

Oren

2013-06-04 02:02:47 UTC

Post by notbob

Post by Oren
Some say folks have shot the bottom of the boat full of holes.
<hilarity ensues>

heh heh..... the double barrel polka! ;)
nb

Bill Dance gets a snake on his neck from the tree.

"Bill hangs his lure up real good in a tree and while he is trying to
get it loose, a snake falls out of the tree right on top of him and he
almost has a heart attack."

<http://www.metacafe.com/watch/500203/bill_dance_has_a_snake_fall_out_of_a_tree_on_him/>

notbob

2013-06-04 03:43:35 UTC

Post by Oren
"Bill hangs his lure up real good in a tree and while he is trying to
get it loose, a snake falls out of the tree right on top of him and he
almost has a heart attack."

I bet from that time on, he jes cut the line and said, "screw it!"
(or left a lackey to retrieve it) ;)

nb

Red

2013-06-02 21:39:15 UTC

Definite rattler, you can see the small pit in front of the eye on
your 1st picture.

If you want to see more closeup on them see:
http://www.alongtheway.org/rattlesnakes/faq.html

Danny D

2013-06-02 22:08:50 UTC

Post by Red
you can see the small pit in front of the eye on
your 1st picture.

I zoomed into that first picture, and I definitely see
the slit eye now (so it's definitely a rattler):
Loading Image...

But, I'm having trouble identifying the pit; is this it?
Loading Image...

Unquestionably Confused

2013-06-02 23:36:37 UTC

Post by Red
you can see the small pit in front of the eye on
your 1st picture.

I zoomed into that first picture, and I definitely see
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/13219089/img/13219089.jpg
But, I'm having trouble identifying the pit; is this it?
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/13219094/img/13219094.jpg

From Wikipedia

What makes this group unique is that they all share a common
characteristic: a deep pit, or fossa, in the loreal area between the eye
and the nostril on either side of the head. These loreal pits are the
external openings to a pair of extremely sensitive infrared-detecting
organs, which in effect give the snakes a sixth sense to help them find
and perhaps even judge the size of the small, warm-blooded prey on which
they feed.[6]

Red

2013-06-02 23:43:57 UTC

Post by Red
you can see the small pit in front of the eye on
your 1st picture.

Yes.

Danny D

2013-06-02 22:44:51 UTC

Post by Red
http://www.alongtheway.org/rattlesnakes/faq.html

Thanks.
That is a very nice site, with professional videos.
I'm going through every one as we type.

The pit in their pictures seemed a bit lower in front
than my snake's pit, so, I created this composite to
help the grandkids (and others) identify rattlers, in
the future.

Loading Image...

DD_BobK

2013-06-02 22:00:25 UTC

How about this?

http://bit.ly/11bMMxc & this http://bit.ly/11bMSVw

If you cannot instantly & accurately see the difference.... stay away,
far away.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_a_baby_rattlesnake_bite_more_dangerous_than_an_adult
http://lomalindahealth.org/medical-center/our-services/emergency/programs-and-divisions/venom-er/resources/when-snakes-strike.page

This is nothing to fool around with..... unless you're interested in a
very painful and potentially permanently disabling injury with ongoing
effects. The good news... death is unlikely but still a rattlesnake
bite is not something you want to experience.

I met a guy who suffered a snake bit and permanently lost a
substantial amount of muscle in either the arm or leg that was bitten.
Google "lawyer bitten by snake put in mailbox"... there are YouTube
interviews with him, ~30 years later he's a physical wreck.

What's that saying about someone / something watches over fools & ???

Oren

2013-06-02 23:05:16 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
This is nothing to fool around with..... unless you're interested in a
very painful and potentially permanently disabling injury with ongoing
effects. The good news... death is unlikely but still a rattlesnake
bite is not something you want to experience.

This is an interesting man. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Haast>

Anti-venoms were made from his blood, real science. He spent days with
severe hallucinations from Cobra bites. Said his eyes felt on fire
and bulging out of his head. He traveled to places to give his blood
for victims.

" Haast had been bitten 172 times as of mid-2008"

RIP Bill.

Danny D

2013-06-02 23:54:12 UTC

Post by Oren
Anti-venoms were made from his blood

Wow. And he lived over 100 years!

Oren

2013-06-03 00:37:41 UTC

Post by Oren
Anti-venoms were made from his blood

Wow. And he lived over 100 years!

Bill Hasst was a marvel to doctors and scientist in snake bite
research. Folks don't hold up to the amount of bites and venom his
body endured.

He often injected snake venoms in himself.

What broke his heart, causing the closing of the Miami Serpentarium,
was when a tourist dropped her infant child in a pit with crocodiles.

Shadow

2013-06-04 12:32:00 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
lawyer bitten by snake

Bloody cannibal ....
[]'s

--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

Danny D

2013-06-04 04:26:35 UTC

Post by Danny D
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13218290/img/13218290.gif

I think it was a "northern pacific rattlesnake" since that's the
key rattler common to the Santa Cruz mountains.

It's apparently not pretty getting bitten by one:
http://www.rattlesnakebite.org/rattlesnakepics.htm

DD_BobK

2013-06-04 05:03:40 UTC

http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13218290/img/13218290.gif

I think it was a "northern pacific rattlesnake" since that's the
key rattler common to the Santa Cruz mountains.
http://www.rattlesnakebite.org/rattlesnakepics.htm

It's apparently not pretty getting bitten by one:
http://www.rattlesnakebite.org/rattlesnakepics.htm

Did you think I was joking?
And you still want to play around with one?

Can you even imagine the pain, inconvenience & cost of such an injury?

Danny D

2013-06-04 05:46:46 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
And you still want to play around with one?

Just to be clear, I have no intention of 'playing' with a rattler.
My only goal was to identify it, capture it, and relocate it.
Safely.

DD_BobK

2013-06-05 06:39:18 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
And you still want to play around with one?

Just to be clear, I have no intention of 'playing' with a rattler.
My only goal was to identify it, capture it, and relocate it.
Safely.

You & I have vastly different definations of "play around"

I'm meaning unnecessary proximity... high risk / low reward.

Take another look at the injury photos, couple that with probability
of getting bit and circumstances / behaviors that lead to bites.

Danny D

2013-06-05 15:38:27 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
You & I have vastly different definations of "play around"
I'm meaning unnecessary proximity... high risk / low reward.

Given the snake existed, essentially on the front steps:
What would your proposal have been?

a. Would you propose I simply leave it on my front steps?
b. Or I shoo it away onto the front lawn?
c. Or, maybe I chop the head off with a shovel?
d. Or perhaps I call the snake-be-gone guy to remove it?
e. Or that I capture it & relocate it?

Note: To be fair, I went back to all your posts in this thread,
to double check what you had suggested - and you did suggest being
careful - and you were one of the first to confirm the viper status;
and, you did provide that nice relocation URL of Dr. Steen who
has had a few conversations with me, and who asked for the photo
and who published it and answered some of my questions both
online and by phone.

Given all that, and given the snake existed, I'm not exactly sure
what *you* would have done had that snake been on your porch other
than you wouldn't "unnecessarily play around with it".

Post by DD_BobK
That's a rattlesnake.
Now what?

g***@aol.com

2013-06-05 16:01:05 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
You & I have vastly different definations of "play around"
I'm meaning unnecessary proximity... high risk / low reward.

What would your proposal have been?
a. Would you propose I simply leave it on my front steps?
b. Or I shoo it away onto the front lawn?
c. Or, maybe I chop the head off with a shovel?
d. Or perhaps I call the snake-be-gone guy to remove it?
e. Or that I capture it & relocate it?
Note: To be fair, I went back to all your posts in this thread,
to double check what you had suggested - and you did suggest being
careful - and you were one of the first to confirm the viper status;
and, you did provide that nice relocation URL of Dr. Steen who
has had a few conversations with me, and who asked for the photo
and who published it and answered some of my questions both
online and by phone.
Given all that, and given the snake existed, I'm not exactly sure
what *you* would have done had that snake been on your porch other
than you wouldn't "unnecessarily play around with it".

I think the snake would get one chance to get into a bucket or trash
can laid on it's side (to get relocated). If it got a little cranky I
would give it a few loads of rat shot.

DD_BobK

2013-06-05 18:14:37 UTC

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by DD_BobK
You & I have vastly different definations of "play around"
I'm meaning unnecessary proximity... high risk / low reward.

I think the snake would get one chance to get into a bucket or trash
can laid on it's side (to get relocated). If it got a little cranky I
would give it a few loads of rat shot.

Oren

2013-06-05 21:45:23 UTC

Post by g***@aol.com

Post by Danny D
Given all that, and given the snake existed, I'm not exactly sure
what *you* would have done had that snake been on your porch other
than you wouldn't "unnecessarily play around with it".

I think the snake would get one chance to get into a bucket or trash
can laid on it's side (to get relocated). If it got a little cranky I
would give it a few loads of rat shot.

I'll kill a snake that thinks he has the advantage.

30.06 works wonders in some places.

A former brother-in-law was struck by a eastern diamondback. The man
jumped so high from fright, but put ~7 round from a 10-22 Ruger. Then
he hit it again with the other remaining rounds. I had a bow an arrow,
no help fer snake killin' in a hurry.

Had one cottonmouth rest his head on my shoe. I backed out and walked.

JoeBro

2013-06-05 16:37:21 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
You & I have vastly different definations of "play around"
I'm meaning unnecessary proximity... high risk / low reward.

What would your proposal have been?

Just pick it up and bite it's head off. Be a man. Post a photo of it's
head in you mouth.

Danny D

2013-06-05 18:45:47 UTC

Post by JoeBro
Just pick it up and bite it's head off.
Be a man. Post a photo of it's head in you mouth.

Loading Image...

DD_BobK

2013-06-05 18:26:56 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
You & I have vastly different definations of "play around"
I'm meaning unnecessary proximity... high risk / low reward.

Post by DD_BobK
That's a rattlesnake.
Now what?

Ya see DADD..... the details come out is dribs & drabs.
You're on scene, you have access to all the details available at any
point in time.

The NG readers must depend on you for information hence the propensity
for some to claim "hiding the football".

Based on your previous displays of "problem solving" ....
this current episode looked like the initial conditions for a major
disaster.

Post by DD_BobK

Given the snake existed, essentially on the front steps: <<<

As much as I prefer not to harm wildlife .....sounds like the
suggestions for snake shot were more applicable than I'd first thought.

Danny D

2013-06-05 18:59:32 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
Based on your previous displays of "problem solving" ....
this current episode looked like the initial conditions for a major
disaster.

I understand. I'm no expert in snake relocation; but, the good news is
that I can learn, and, that I have learned.

First off, from the pictures you referenced, it can be an extremely
painful and expensive ($700K) experience getting bitten in the hand
(as that young boy's story showed that you pointed me to).

Also, you seemed to know right away that it was a rattler, although
at first, I wasn't at all sure (especially since I had caught a
gopher snake of similar colors in essentially the same spot last year).

Thirdly, I had none of the right equipment for handling snakes
(other than a lot of secure-topped plastic buckets and MIG-welding
gloves).

And certainly I don't have the experience of the snake catcher
who called me yesterday, and who gave me advice for relocating
the next one.

In addition, I had not learned the relocation advice which you
had pointed me to (Dr. David Steen) with whom I've had multiple
conversations over the past few days in terms of improving the
chances of a successful long-term relocation.

There are more lessons learned; which is the beauty, after all,
of learning from you more experienced guys.

As a side note, the snake-be-gone guy only charges $75 to remove
a snake; and he tries to relocate them within 500 yards in similar
terrain; and for $150 he does a snake inspection tour of the property.

My only wonder is how a snake sits and waits for the guy to arrive
because it has to take him time to get there - and - in my
experience, the snake isn't going to sit there exposed that whole
time.

Oren

2013-06-05 21:55:39 UTC

Post by Danny D
My only wonder is how a snake sits and waits for the guy to arrive
because it has to take him time to get there - and - in my
experience, the snake isn't going to sit there exposed that whole
time.

...the snake hides behind the clothes dryer until the snake police get
there. He is NOT able to open the door and escape.

Same with alligators in your swimming pool or one trying to eat your
dog.

DD_BobK

2013-06-06 00:17:01 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
Based on your previous displays of "problem solving" ....
this current episode looked like the initial conditions for a major
disaster.

I understand. I'm no expert in snake relocation; but, the good news is
that I can learn, and, that I have learned.
First off, from the pictures you referenced, it can be an extremely
painful and expensive ($700K) experience getting bitten in the hand
(as that young boy's story showed that you pointed me to).
Also, you seemed to know right away that it was a rattler, although
at first, I wasn't at all sure (especially since I had caught a
gopher snake of similar colors in essentially the same spot last year).
Thirdly, I had none of the right equipment for handling snakes
(other than a lot of secure-topped plastic buckets and MIG-welding
gloves).
And certainly I don't have the experience of the snake catcher
who called me yesterday, and who gave me advice for relocating
the next one.
In addition, I had not learned the relocation advice which you
had pointed me to (Dr. David Steen) with whom I've had multiple
conversations over the past few days in terms of improving the
chances of a successful long-term relocation.
There are more lessons learned; which is the beauty, after all,
of learning from you more experienced guys.
As a side note, the snake-be-gone guy only charges $75 to remove
a snake; and he tries to relocate them within 500 yards in similar
terrain; and for $150 he does a snake inspection tour of the property.
My only wonder is how a snake sits and waits for the guy to arrive
because it has to take him time to get there - and - in my
experience, the snake isn't going to sit there exposed that whole
time.

Post by DD_BobK

There are more lessons learned; which is the beauty, after all, of learning from you more experienced guys <<<<<<

Even heard of the 7 P's?
Ever do any risk / reward ... cost / benefit analysis?

imo the potential cost for a bumbling rookie to handle a poisonous
snake? vs the benefit?

If you live in snake country and knew nothing about snakes maybe an
alternative plan was in order?

Next crisis? Brush fire? Got a fire plan? Equipment? Knowledge?

Danny D

2013-06-06 07:22:13 UTC

Post by DD_BobK
Next crisis? Brush fire? Got a fire plan? Equipment? Knowledge?

That's why I was clearing out and chipping the brush within 100 feet
of the house. It's all part of the fire safe plan (which you have in
your area also).

And, it's why I keep bolt cutters handy (to cut the chains on the fire
access roads), and fire extinguishers in handy locations.

And, why we all have wharf hydrants, by code, on our properties, since
we're all on well water.

And, why the town drops off those blue reflector things for us to
put in the driveway or roadway for the fire department to locate
our hydrants.

And, why the kids and grandkids know to assemble at the pool if/when
there is a fire.

What else would you suggest?

Oren

2013-06-06 20:44:47 UTC

Post by Danny D
And, why the kids and grandkids know to assemble at the pool if/when
there is a fire.
What else would you suggest?

Federal fire jumpers, from planes, may have a form or fire blanket in
the raging fire.

They can bundle in the blanket for safety. Maybe keep a couple in your
car.

Danny D

2013-06-07 02:06:54 UTC

Post by Oren
Federal fire jumpers, from planes, may have a form or fire blanket in
the raging fire.

That wouldn't be a bad idea because we're in the highest fire hazard zone
they make.

I did toy with the idea of buying a pump for spraying the house from the
pool, but then I realized it would be about a thousand bucks in toto, and
would likely not be used because if the fire gets that close, I'm outta'
here anyway.

Plus, the fire department is only about 25 miles away, yet they still
made us pay that extra fire tax which isn't called a tax. It's called a
fee. So that way they could get around the laws that make voting in
California on tax raises harder. With a fee, it was easy because they
told everyone they wouldn't be paying that "fee" so everyone voted since
they want everyone else to pay their fee. I'm still burning up over it.

Oren

2013-06-07 15:54:40 UTC

On Fri, 7 Jun 2013 02:06:54 +0000 (UTC), Danny D <***@example.com>
wrote:

Check out this story and video: Rattlesnake

Story: COTTONWOOD, Calif. - A Cottonwood toddler had a close call with
a rattlesnake (looks like your rattler)

<http://www.krcrtv.com/news/local/caught-on-camera-rattlesnake-wraps-around-1yearold-girl/-/14322302/20436432/-/jrrvm4/-/index.html>

Video:

<http://www.krcrtv.com/news/local/caught-on-camera-oneyearold-survives-rattlesnake-scare-without-a-scratch/-/14322302/20428328/-/3cadeuz/-/index.html>

Oren

2013-06-04 20:43:43 UTC

Post by Danny D
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13218290/img/13218290.gif

I think it was a "northern pacific rattlesnake" since that's the
key rattler common to the Santa Cruz mountains.
http://www.rattlesnakebite.org/rattlesnakepics.htm

Show that to the "kids". Teach them to stay away for safety reasons.
And, to identify them. A snake bite kit would be handy in your
location.

See that right there boy?!! That snake can kill you. Now get back to
the house and tell your momma she needs you.

Danny D

2013-06-04 22:18:17 UTC

Post by Oren
Show that to the "kids".

It would scare the daylights out of any kid!

Turns out, two of my neighbors spent time in the hospital
recently due to snake bites, both reputedly from Northern
Pacific Rattlers (which are apparently the only rattler
that frequents these hills).

I spoke to both by phone this week because they had
written back on our neighborhood alias that the snake
was the same species that bit them.

So, within two miles of my house, two people in the
past four years have been bitten by rattlers; and
that's just the ones who responded within the
neighborhood alias.

Wow. It's more prevalent than I had thought.
Always a lesson to be learned.

PS: Maybe I flushed him out when I cleaned up all
the animal dens when I cleared out the brush just
fifty feet away from where he was found?

Oren

2013-06-04 23:22:22 UTC

Post by Oren
Show that to the "kids".

It would scare the daylights out of any kid!

Lame excuse, Danny. Will you always protect them and be there for
comfort? Tell them the truth and show it.

Post by Danny D
Turns out, two of my neighbors spent time in the hospital
recently due to snake bites, both reputedly from Northern
Pacific Rattlers (which are apparently the only rattler
that frequents these hills).
I spoke to both by phone this week because they had
written back on our neighborhood alias that the snake
was the same species that bit them.
So, within two miles of my house, two people in the
past four years have been bitten by rattlers; and
that's just the ones who responded within the
neighborhood alias.
Wow. It's more prevalent than I had thought.
Always a lesson to be learned.

Oh jeez. You want to mess around with a viper. Now know, the stories?

... kick the wrong dog one time

Post by Danny D
PS: Maybe I flushed him out when I cleaned up all
the animal dens when I cleared out the brush just
fifty feet away from where he was found?

I said that, plus, the rats in your pool heater area. The snakes came
to eat dinner.

Danny D

2013-06-04 23:47:01 UTC

Post by Oren
plus, the rats in your pool heater area.
The snakes came to eat dinner.

Understood.

Apparently the Northern Pacific rattler is an ambush
predator, where the young predate on lizards while the
adults enjoy the mammals and quail (of which I have
plenty of bunnies, rats/mice, and assorted gophers
for them to dine upon).

Danny D

2013-06-04 16:12:42 UTC

Post by Danny D
Can you tell if it's a rattler or a gopher snake?

They identified it as a young Northern Pacific Rattlesnake
by numerous PhDs in the field. All concurred.

Post by Danny D
C. oreganus.
PS: Great photo - by the way - can I use that in the
Reptile Database? Just send me your full name, so I
can acknowledge you. Thanks!
Dr. Wolfgang Wüster - Senior Lecturer
School of Biological Sciences Bangor University
Environment Centre Wales
Bangor LL57 2UW Wales, UK
Tel: +44 1248 382301 Fax: +44 1248 382569

Danny D

2013-06-04 16:18:05 UTC

Post by Danny D
They identified it as a young Northern Pacific Rattlesnake
by numerous PhDs in the field. All concurred.

Here's a better description based only on the photo:

Andrew Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
You can tell that it is a rattler (Northern Pacific rattlesnake)
by the head shape ("chunky" with steep vertical surfaces);dark/light
band through the eye; stout body; pronounced, keeled scales that
are not shiny; and dorsal color pattern made up of dark-margined
blotches on a lighter background. These snakes are essentially
sit-and-wait predators that seek out good places to ambush prey
(fallen trees, rock ledges, walls, etc).

Oren

2013-06-04 16:27:51 UTC

Post by Danny D
Can you tell if it's a rattler or a gopher snake?

They identified it as a young Northern Pacific Rattlesnake
by numerous PhDs in the field. All concurred.

"General Description: Northern Pacific Rattlesnakes (Crotalus oreganus
oreganus) are medium-sized, heavy-bodied snakes with broad,
triangular-shaped heads and rattles on the tail. The dorsal pattern is
variable, but the ground color usually is tan, aging to dark. Dorsal
blotches are brown with dark, irregular borders, and the blotches are
wider than the spaces between them. Two irregular rows of small, dark
blotches on the sides. Dark and light tail rings well defined, each of
uniform width; dark rings grade to black towards the rattle.

Taxonomy: Pit Vipers Family (Viperidae). Formerly a subspecies of the
Western Rattlesnake (Crotalus viridus).

Where to Find: Don't look for Northern Pacific Rattlesnakes around Las
Vegas. Rather, look for them in central and northern California and
western Oregon.

Special Remarks: Venomous."

Great photos:

<http://www.birdandhike.com/Wildlife/Snake/Cro_ore_ore/_Cro_ore_o.htm>

BTW, the snake was on the sunny side of your house. Being cold-blooded
creatures, they seek warmth.

Snakes that are lethargic, may not strike, but they can. The
Cottonmouth I encountered, inches from my face was lethargic. He was
coiled, still raised his head, ready to strike when he got blasted.

Danny D

2013-06-04 19:05:46 UTC

Post by Oren
Snakes that are lethargic, may not strike, but they can

I think my little baby northern pacific rattlesnake was only
interested in getting away from me. Sort of like what Bob is
always trying to do! :)

BTW, here's another article on relocation; this one doesn't
paint such a bright prospect, but, I think most people think
of relocation as greater than 500 yards.
http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/08/how-far-should-you-move-nuisance-rattlesnake-great-basin-inquiring-minds-want-know4413

Oren

2013-06-04 19:28:12 UTC

Post by Oren
Snakes that are lethargic, may not strike, but they can

I think my little baby northern pacific rattlesnake was only
interested in getting away from me. Sort of like what Bob is
always trying to do! :)

I don't know why you think this was a "baby". It looked much larger
in the photo, to me.

For example; cottonmouth moccasins, when full grown are maybe ~22 -24
inches. Those are big. Short, fat, thick bodies.

Post by Danny D
BTW, here's another article on relocation; this one doesn't
paint such a bright prospect, but, I think most people think
of relocation as greater than 500 yards.
http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2009/08/how-far-should-you-move-nuisance-rattlesnake-great-basin-inquiring-minds-want-know4413

Rattlesnake Chili

<http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/food-fight/rattlesnake-chili-recipe/index.html>

Danny D

2013-06-04 23:30:56 UTC

Post by Oren
I don't know why you think this was a "baby".

Well, I don't know the age. Babies are apparently born in
October, so, it was at least 6 months old. I "assumed" it
was a juvenile based on the tiny rattle; but I could
(easily) be wrong.

Oren

2013-06-05 03:14:25 UTC

Post by Danny D
I "assumed" it
was a juvenile based on the tiny rattle; but I could
(easily) be wrong.

Age of a snake is not determined by counting button rattlers.

Do not follow that notion for certainty.

Danny D.

2013-06-05 03:57:29 UTC

Post by Oren
Age of a snake is not determined by counting button rattlers.
Do not follow that notion for certainty.

I know. They add buttons when they molt, which can be multiple times per
year; and, more importantly, they lose 'em from time to time.

Anyway, it wasn't all that big.

I didn't bother to measure it, but let's say it was only about 15 inches
to 20-something inches, and only about an inch thick or so (again, I
didn't even attempt to measure it).

I've seen muuuuch larger ones out here; so, I still *think* it was young;
but I really have no clue so I probably shouldn't have called it a 'baby'.

Juvenile might be more appropriate - or - a skinny short adult. :)
Let's hope it doesn't remember from whence it came!

p***@gmail.com

2013-09-09 20:43:06 UTC

it is a rattler you can tell by its eyes,tail, and its pattern

Oren

2013-09-09 23:06:13 UTC

Post by p***@gmail.com
it is a rattler you can tell by its eyes,tail, and its pattern

Giggle. Rats snakes may have a pattern that looks like a rattler.

Had you noticed, a viper's head shape is the best way to tell.

p***@gmail.com

2013-09-09 20:44:44 UTC

its a rattler

Oren

2013-09-09 23:02:31 UTC

Post by p***@gmail.com
its a rattler

We knew that in the original postings - back in June, was it?

d***@gmail.com

2013-09-12 02:43:31 UTC

You shouldn't hurt a rattlesnake either! They are a protected species

Oren

2013-09-12 03:09:37 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
You shouldn't hurt a rattlesnake either! They are a protected species

What part of Earth do you live on? Are you certain they are a
protected species?

Rattlesnakes taste good. Shall we chew gently?

Apparently you have not yet faced a Viper! A viper that can kill you.
Never had or seen one strike a man. Never had a Viper in YOUR face
before he was shot dead.

Heck, a lawn mower can kill them when you cut the grass.

Ten miles in the swamp, I'll kill any viper that desires to harm me.

How 'bout you?

Danny D.

2013-09-13 07:27:09 UTC

Post by Oren
Rattlesnakes taste good. Shall we chew gently?

Heh heh ... I recently ran into this baby rattler down in my ravine.
Loading Image...

I counted about 7 rattles.

I wonder if it's the same one, perhaps grown up a bit, that I had
ungracefully relocated a while back?

Red Green

2013-09-13 14:01:32 UTC

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
Rattlesnakes taste good. Shall we chew gently?

Heh heh ... I recently ran into this baby rattler down in my ravine.
http://i43.tinypic.com/1038v2w.gif
I counted about 7 rattles.
I wonder if it's the same one, perhaps grown up a bit, that I had
ungracefully relocated a while back?
I wonder if it's the same one...

Well, how did it respond when you said "Yo, wusup?"

Oren

2013-09-13 15:51:34 UTC

On Fri, 13 Sep 2013 07:27:09 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
Rattlesnakes taste good. Shall we chew gently?

No way to tell, unless it was wearing a Scarlet Letter.

I'm surprised you had your foot so close and the rattler had not
coiled up, ready to strike.

Danny D.

2013-09-14 06:48:03 UTC

Post by Oren
I'm surprised you had your foot so close and the rattler had not
coiled up, ready to strike.

The rattler didn't seem perturbed one bit by my presence.
Maybe he remembers?

Oren

2013-09-14 19:29:41 UTC

On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 06:48:03 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."

Post by Danny D.

Post by Oren
I'm surprised you had your foot so close and the rattler had not
coiled up, ready to strike.

The rattler didn't seem perturbed one bit by my presence.
Maybe he remembers?

Put your money down and take your chances.

Think natural instinct vs memory of a rattler. You've seen the result
of bites from the snake in other threads here.

<"Eeny, meeny, miny, moe">

Danny D.

2013-09-14 06:54:07 UTC

Are you certain they are a protected species?

As Oren says, at least in California, where even every
tree is a protected species if it's greater than a foot
in diameter at chest level, Rattlesnakes aren't protected.

I see a rattler every week or so.

Red Green

2013-09-12 13:22:04 UTC