Repairing the roof truss

[MiamiCuse]

I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new condenser
unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with new drain line and
drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be removed and disposed of.

The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I don't
want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they cut two of my
rafters out!!! I asked him and he said it had to be done or else it
wouldn't fit. So I had to figure out a way to fix what he did.

This is what the two members used to look like, the piece that goes from the
joist to the roof rafter. See the image:

Loading Image...

In order to fix this, I remove the left over pieces he cut from the bottom
and top connection. Took me a long time because there are plates with
hundreds of teeth biting into several pieces of framing at the same time,
there was not enough elbow room to work or get leverage so it took me a long
time. Once I got them out, I replaced them with a piece going from the
bottom to the top only at a steeper angle, then I ran another piece from
there to the high point. So basically replacing one member with two. Here
are the photos:

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

Will this work? I think it should but want to double check.

Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to pull
out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend" backwards to let
loose the piece of wood. Is there a tool to remove these metal plates? I
was up there almost 4 hours just prying the plates out.

Loading Image...

Thanks,

MC

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Post by MiamiCuse
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I don't
want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they cut two of
my rafters out!!! I asked him and he said it had to be done or else it
wouldn't fit. So I had to figure out a way to fix what he did.
Once I got them out, I replaced them with a piece going from the bottom
to the top only at a steeper angle, then I ran another piece from there to
the high point. So basically replacing one member with two. Here are the
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020491.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020495.jpg
Will this work? I think it should but want to double check.

I'm not a structural engineer, but it looks OK to me. Those things are over
engineered because idiots like your AC guys will cut them once in a while
but moving the load to a different point should not be a problem. I'd have
done it pretty much the same way, give or take an inch.

[tom]

"MiamiCuse" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@dsli.com...

<snip>

Post by MiamiCuse
Will this work? I think it should but want to double check.
Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to pull
out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend" backwards to let
loose the piece of wood. Is there a tool to remove these metal plates? I
was up there almost 4 hours just prying the plates out.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020490.jpg
Thanks,
MC

You might want to apply generous plywood gussets using screws and liquid
nails to both sides of those joints where those new webs meet the rafters to
replace the nail plates you removed.

When I worked on a truss shop we used a tool similar to this to peel off
gang nail plates when necessary.

http://www.horseshoes.net/mfc/nippers.asp

[Red Green]

Post by MiamiCuse
I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new
condenser unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with
new drain line and drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be
removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I
don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they
cut two of my rafters out!!! I asked him and he said it had to be
done or else it wouldn't fit. So I had to figure out a way to fix
what he did.
This is what the two members used to look like, the piece that goes
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020494A.jpg
In order to fix this, I remove the left over pieces he cut from the
bottom and top connection. Took me a long time because there are
plates with hundreds of teeth biting into several pieces of framing at
the same time, there was not enough elbow room to work or get leverage
so it took me a long time. Once I got them out, I replaced them with
a piece going from the bottom to the top only at a steeper angle, then
I ran another piece from there to the high point. So basically
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020491.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020495.jpg
Will this work? I think it should but want to double check.
Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to
pull out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend"
backwards to let loose the piece of wood. Is there a tool to remove
these metal plates? I was up there almost 4 hours just prying the
plates out.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020490.jpg
Thanks,
MC

What he has done is nothing but bad news. If I were buying your house I
would ask for a stamped PE's (professional Engineer) statement that says
the repair is approved. If I were a home inspector, in my report to the
potential buyer it would say something to the effect of "Trusses have
been modified. Request from buyer a stamped copy of PE's statement
approving changes/modifications".

Somewhere along the line that's gonna happen to some seller of that
house. It's just a matter of who is holding the bag. As a buyer, I don't
wanna be the one.

You cannot just change trusses. Every piece of a truss has an effect on
the others. Most trusses can be repaired but before anything you have to
have a PE's statement approving it. This is not just some PITA rule. The
weight of the entire roof and anything that's ever on it is on those
trusses and transfered to the outer walls. Repairs and changes are often
done with gussets. The geometry, specs, placement and even screw spacing
and type are part of the PE's statement.

The reason those plates are hard to pull out is so that they don't pull
out. They are put in by hydraulic presses to apply an even calculated
pressure that is part of the overall geometry of stresses and loads of
the truss. Even the lumber used is part of the calculation, i.e, SYP,
SPF, No 1,2 or 3, cord & web widths.

What you have done may be fine but you will need to show many buyers a
PE's statemnt that says so...and any buyer that gets a home inspection.
Personally, I would go after the bastard for altering a significant
structural component of your home. They may or may not have needed a
permit to do the HVAC work but I bet a permit is required to modify
trusses. Did they get one? The the inspector sign off on it?

As a buyer I might hear yadda yadda yadda from the seller and much of it
good convincing info. When the seller was done I'd say, "Great! Show me
the approved PE's statement stamped".

[RicodJour]

Post by Red Green

Post by MiamiCuse
I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new
condenser unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with
new drain line and drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be
removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space.  I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I
don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they
cut two of my rafters out!!!  I asked him and he said it had to be
done or else it wouldn't fit.  So I had to figure out a way to fix
what he did.
This is what the two members used to look like, the piece that goes
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020494A.jpg
In order to fix this, I remove the left over pieces he cut from the
bottom and top connection.  Took me a long time because there are
plates with hundreds of teeth biting into several pieces of framing at
the same time, there was not enough elbow room to work or get leverage
so it took me a long time.  Once I got them out, I replaced them with
a piece going from the bottom to the top only at a steeper angle, then
I ran another piece from there to the high point.  So basically
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020491.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020495.jpg
Will this work?  I think it should but want to double check.
Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to
pull out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend"
backwards to let loose the piece of wood.  Is there a tool to remove
these metal plates?  I was up there almost 4 hours just prying the
plates out.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020490.jpg

What he has done is nothing but bad news. If I were buying your house I
would ask for a stamped PE's (professional Engineer) statement that says
the repair is approved. If I were a home inspector, in my report to the
potential buyer it would say something to the effect of "Trusses have
been modified. Request from buyer a stamped copy of PE's statement
approving changes/modifications".
Somewhere along the line that's gonna happen to some seller of that
house. It's just a matter of who is holding the bag. As a buyer, I don't
wanna be the one.
You cannot just change trusses. Every piece of a truss has an effect on
the others. Most trusses can be repaired but before anything you have to
have a PE's statement approving it. This is not just some PITA rule. The
weight of the entire roof and anything that's ever on it is on those
trusses and transfered to the outer walls. Repairs and changes are often
done with gussets. The geometry, specs, placement and even screw spacing
and type are part of the PE's statement.
The reason those plates are hard to pull out is so that they don't pull
out. They are put in by hydraulic presses to apply an even calculated
pressure that is part of the overall geometry of stresses and loads of
the truss. Even the lumber used is part of the calculation, i.e, SYP,
SPF, No 1,2 or 3, cord & web widths.
What you have done may be fine but you will need to show many buyers a
PE's statemnt that says so...and any buyer that gets a home inspection.
Personally, I would go after the bastard for altering a significant
structural component of your home. They may or may not have needed a
permit to do the HVAC work but I bet a permit is required to modify
trusses. Did they get one? The the inspector sign off on it?
As a buyer I might hear yadda yadda yadda from the seller and much of it
good convincing info. When the seller was done I'd say, "Great! Show me
the approved PE's statement stamped".

Like he said. Read what he wrote again so it sinks in.

Your AC guy bent you over a chair and had his way with you. You can't
arbitrarily change truss members. Truss connections are at least as
important as the truss member sizes. That diagonal element may be
called on to take compression or _tension_ loads. What you did does
nothing for tension loads. Another poster recommended plywood
gussets, and that would be a big help if done correctly, but you are
Rube Goldberging a solution to an equation you don't understand.

You have _no_ choice but to have an engineer design the solution and
then build what he indicates and have him sign off. That could easily
cost as much as your AC guy's profit - or more.

R

[BobK207]

Post by Red Green

Post by MiamiCuse
I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new
condenser unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with
new drain line and drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be
removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space.  I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I
don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they
cut two of my rafters out!!!  I asked him and he said it had to be
done or else it wouldn't fit.  So I had to figure out a way to fix
what he did.
This is what the two members used to look like, the piece that goes
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020494A.jpg
In order to fix this, I remove the left over pieces he cut from the
bottom and top connection.  Took me a long time because there are
plates with hundreds of teeth biting into several pieces of framing at
the same time, there was not enough elbow room to work or get leverage
so it took me a long time.  Once I got them out, I replaced them with
a piece going from the bottom to the top only at a steeper angle, then
I ran another piece from there to the high point.  So basically
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020491.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020495.jpg
Will this work?  I think it should but want to double check.
Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to
pull out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend"
backwards to let loose the piece of wood.  Is there a tool to remove
these metal plates?  I was up there almost 4 hours just prying the
plates out.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020490.jpg

What he has done is nothing but bad news. If I were buying your house I
would ask for a stamped PE's (professional Engineer) statement that says
the repair is approved. If I were a home inspector, in my report to the
potential buyer it would say something to the effect of "Trusses have
been modified. Request from buyer a stamped copy of PE's statement
approving changes/modifications".
Somewhere along the line that's gonna happen to some seller of that
house. It's just a matter of who is holding the bag. As a buyer, I don't
wanna be the one.
You cannot just change trusses. Every piece of a truss has an effect on
the others. Most trusses can be repaired but before anything you have to
have a PE's statement approving it. This is not just some PITA rule. The
weight of the entire roof and anything that's ever on it is on those
trusses and transfered to the outer walls. Repairs and changes are often
done with gussets. The geometry, specs, placement and even screw spacing
and type are part of the PE's statement.
The reason those plates are hard to pull out is so that they don't pull
out. They are put in by hydraulic presses to apply an even calculated
pressure that is part of the overall geometry of stresses and loads of
the truss. Even the lumber used is part of the calculation, i.e, SYP,
SPF, No 1,2 or 3, cord & web widths.
What you have done may be fine but you will need to show many buyers a
PE's statemnt that says so...and any buyer that gets a home inspection.
Personally, I would go after the bastard for altering a significant
structural component of your home. They may or may not have needed a
permit to do the HVAC work but I bet a permit is required to modify
trusses. Did they get one? The the inspector sign off on it?
As a buyer I might hear yadda yadda yadda from the seller and much of it
good convincing info. When the seller was done I'd say, "Great! Show me
the approved PE's statement stamped".

Like he said.  Read what he wrote again so it sinks in.
Your AC guy bent you over a chair and had his way with you.  You can't
arbitrarily change truss members.  Truss connections are at least as
important as the truss member sizes.  That diagonal element may be
called on to take compression or _tension_ loads.  What you did does
nothing for tension loads.  Another poster recommended plywood
gussets, and that would be a big help if done correctly, but you are
Rube Goldberging a solution to an equation you don't understand.
You have _no_ choice but to have an engineer design the solution and
then build what he indicates and have him sign off.  That could easily
cost as much as your AC guy's profit - or more.
R

I'd have to agree with Red Green's & Rico's comments ....

have a PE bless your fix (with any necessary mods) or design an
alternative.

My guess it will be plywood gussets & staples.

btw the reason those truss plates are hard to remove is that they're
not intended to be removed.....there is no tool.
I would use a 4" grinder with really coarse sanding disk to burn off
the plates and then just plywood gusset over the joint.

Truss members are meant to meet at a single point of action so that
member loads are dominately axial in nature.

cheers
Bob

[MiamiCuse]

Post by Red Green

Post by MiamiCuse
I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new
condenser unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with
new drain line and drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be
removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I
don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they
cut two of my rafters out!!! I asked him and he said it had to be
done or else it wouldn't fit. So I had to figure out a way to fix
what he did.
This is what the two members used to look like, the piece that goes
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020494A.jpg
In order to fix this, I remove the left over pieces he cut from the
bottom and top connection. Took me a long time because there are
plates with hundreds of teeth biting into several pieces of framing at
the same time, there was not enough elbow room to work or get leverage
so it took me a long time. Once I got them out, I replaced them with
a piece going from the bottom to the top only at a steeper angle, then
I ran another piece from there to the high point. So basically
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020491.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020495.jpg
Will this work? I think it should but want to double check.
Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to
pull out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend"
backwards to let loose the piece of wood. Is there a tool to remove
these metal plates? I was up there almost 4 hours just prying the
plates out.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020490.jpg

What he has done is nothing but bad news. If I were buying your house I
would ask for a stamped PE's (professional Engineer) statement that says
the repair is approved. If I were a home inspector, in my report to the
potential buyer it would say something to the effect of "Trusses have
been modified. Request from buyer a stamped copy of PE's statement
approving changes/modifications".
Somewhere along the line that's gonna happen to some seller of that
house. It's just a matter of who is holding the bag. As a buyer, I don't
wanna be the one.
You cannot just change trusses. Every piece of a truss has an effect on
the others. Most trusses can be repaired but before anything you have to
have a PE's statement approving it. This is not just some PITA rule. The
weight of the entire roof and anything that's ever on it is on those
trusses and transfered to the outer walls. Repairs and changes are often
done with gussets. The geometry, specs, placement and even screw spacing
and type are part of the PE's statement.
The reason those plates are hard to pull out is so that they don't pull
out. They are put in by hydraulic presses to apply an even calculated
pressure that is part of the overall geometry of stresses and loads of
the truss. Even the lumber used is part of the calculation, i.e, SYP,
SPF, No 1,2 or 3, cord & web widths.
What you have done may be fine but you will need to show many buyers a
PE's statemnt that says so...and any buyer that gets a home inspection.
Personally, I would go after the bastard for altering a significant
structural component of your home. They may or may not have needed a
permit to do the HVAC work but I bet a permit is required to modify
trusses. Did they get one? The the inspector sign off on it?
As a buyer I might hear yadda yadda yadda from the seller and much of it
good convincing info. When the seller was done I'd say, "Great! Show me
the approved PE's statement stamped".

Like he said. Read what he wrote again so it sinks in.
Your AC guy bent you over a chair and had his way with you. You can't
arbitrarily change truss members. Truss connections are at least as
important as the truss member sizes. That diagonal element may be
called on to take compression or _tension_ loads. What you did does
nothing for tension loads. Another poster recommended plywood
gussets, and that would be a big help if done correctly, but you are
Rube Goldberging a solution to an equation you don't understand.
You have _no_ choice but to have an engineer design the solution and
then build what he indicates and have him sign off. That could easily
cost as much as your AC guy's profit - or more.
R

I'd have to agree with Red Green's & Rico's comments ....

have a PE bless your fix (with any necessary mods) or design an
alternative.

My guess it will be plywood gussets & staples.

btw the reason those truss plates are hard to remove is that they're
not intended to be removed.....there is no tool.
I would use a 4" grinder with really coarse sanding disk to burn off
the plates and then just plywood gusset over the joint.

Truss members are meant to meet at a single point of action so that
member loads are dominately axial in nature.

cheers
Bob

OK, I have to dig out some old structures book and study them. I did have
some classes on trusses, plates and shells in college, long time ago and
don't remember anything.

Monday, I will walk next door to the bridge department and ask those PhD
what I need to do.

[zxcvbob]

Post by BobK207

Post by RicodJour

Post by Red Green

Post by MiamiCuse
I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new
condenser unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with
new drain line and drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be
removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I
don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they
cut two of my rafters out!!! I asked him and he said it had to be
done or else it wouldn't fit. So I had to figure out a way to fix
what he did.
This is what the two members used to look like, the piece that goes
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020494A.jpg
In order to fix this, I remove the left over pieces he cut from the
bottom and top connection. Took me a long time because there are
plates with hundreds of teeth biting into several pieces of framing at
the same time, there was not enough elbow room to work or get leverage
so it took me a long time. Once I got them out, I replaced them with
a piece going from the bottom to the top only at a steeper angle, then
I ran another piece from there to the high point. So basically
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020491.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020495.jpg
Will this work? I think it should but want to double check.
Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to
pull out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend"
backwards to let loose the piece of wood. Is there a tool to remove
these metal plates? I was up there almost 4 hours just prying the
plates out.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020490.jpg

What he has done is nothing but bad news. If I were buying your house I
would ask for a stamped PE's (professional Engineer) statement that says
the repair is approved. If I were a home inspector, in my report to the
potential buyer it would say something to the effect of "Trusses have
been modified. Request from buyer a stamped copy of PE's statement
approving changes/modifications".
Somewhere along the line that's gonna happen to some seller of that
house. It's just a matter of who is holding the bag. As a buyer, I don't
wanna be the one.
You cannot just change trusses. Every piece of a truss has an effect on
the others. Most trusses can be repaired but before anything you have to
have a PE's statement approving it. This is not just some PITA rule. The
weight of the entire roof and anything that's ever on it is on those
trusses and transfered to the outer walls. Repairs and changes are often
done with gussets. The geometry, specs, placement and even screw spacing
and type are part of the PE's statement.
The reason those plates are hard to pull out is so that they don't pull
out. They are put in by hydraulic presses to apply an even calculated
pressure that is part of the overall geometry of stresses and loads of
the truss. Even the lumber used is part of the calculation, i.e, SYP,
SPF, No 1,2 or 3, cord & web widths.
What you have done may be fine but you will need to show many buyers a
PE's statemnt that says so...and any buyer that gets a home inspection.
Personally, I would go after the bastard for altering a significant
structural component of your home. They may or may not have needed a
permit to do the HVAC work but I bet a permit is required to modify
trusses. Did they get one? The the inspector sign off on it?
As a buyer I might hear yadda yadda yadda from the seller and much of it
good convincing info. When the seller was done I'd say, "Great! Show me
the approved PE's statement stamped".

Like he said. Read what he wrote again so it sinks in.
Your AC guy bent you over a chair and had his way with you. You can't
arbitrarily change truss members. Truss connections are at least as
important as the truss member sizes. That diagonal element may be
called on to take compression or _tension_ loads. What you did does
nothing for tension loads. Another poster recommended plywood
gussets, and that would be a big help if done correctly, but you are
Rube Goldberging a solution to an equation you don't understand.
You have _no_ choice but to have an engineer design the solution and
then build what he indicates and have him sign off. That could easily
cost as much as your AC guy's profit - or more.
R

I'd have to agree with Red Green's & Rico's comments ....
have a PE bless your fix (with any necessary mods) or design an
alternative.
My guess it will be plywood gussets & staples.

And resorcinol glue. The repair in the pictures looks good to me, but
you should have put a jack under the top member(looks like a rafter) to
take some of the weight of the roof while you replaced the brace -- so
the brace is preloaded like on the unmolested trusses. I've had to
repair a defective truss and that's how I did it before I nailed/glued
the sister boards. This was just a garage, but I did contact the truss
maker and one of their P.E. sent me some paperwork. I did the same
thing to fix broken rafters in a big tool shed, but that wasn't a truss
so the certification didn't matter.

Two consecutive trusses?? I'd be really pissed. You need to get an
engineer (or maybe an architect can do it but I doubt it) to certify the
modification and you'll be fine. Send the bill to the asshat who cut them.

Bob

[Doug]

Post by Red Green
You cannot just change trusses. Every piece of a truss has an effect on
the others. Most trusses can be repaired but before anything you have to
have a PE's statement approving it. This is not just some PITA rule. The
weight of the entire roof and anything that's ever on it is on those
trusses and transfered to the outer walls. Repairs and changes are often
done with gussets. The geometry, specs, placement and even screw spacing
and type are part of the PE's statement.
The reason those plates are hard to pull out is so that they don't pull
out. They are put in by hydraulic presses to apply an even calculated
pressure that is part of the overall geometry of stresses and loads of
the truss. Even the lumber used is part of the calculation, i.e, SYP,
SPF, No 1,2 or 3, cord & web widths.
What you have done may be fine but you will need to show many buyers a
PE's statemnt that says so...and any buyer that gets a home inspection.
Personally, I would go after the bastard for altering a significant
structural component of your home. They may or may not have needed a
permit to do the HVAC work but I bet a permit is required to modify
trusses. Did they get one? The the inspector sign off on it?
As a buyer I might hear yadda yadda yadda from the seller and much of it
good convincing info. When the seller was done I'd say, "Great! Show me
the approved PE's statement stamped".

And as a seller, I'd say "well, then Mister, find yourself another
house because I'm not hiring a PE or a structural engineer just to
reduce your stomach butterflies".

Since when in our society do we always need such ironclad guarantees,
stamped with approval?

How the hell did they ever manage to build houses before structural
engineers existed? Give me a break...

I raised the roof of a house using 26 ft long rafters to give a clear
span with a 16 ft cathedral ceiling in one part and designed my own
trusses in another. I simply used code books and books on
architectural engineering standards, did the simple math and had it
built, but also doing much of the work myself.

The City's building inspector approved my drawings, signed off on the
inspections and it passed with flying colors. When in doubt, I simply
went up one extra lumber size over what the simple match dictated.
That was done in 1988 and I still own the house and it survived a
tornado that shook the entire building.

It ain't rocket science and no structural enineer is necessary to do
such a simple repair. The orginal poster has done a perfectly
satisfactory job.

Jeez, it's amazing that Monticello is still standing. Jefferson wasn't
a structural engineer...

Doug

[SteveBell]

Post by Doug

Post by Red Green
You cannot just change trusses. Every piece of a truss has an
effect on the others. Most trusses can be repaired but before
anything you have to have a PE's statement approving it. This is
not just some PITA rule. The weight of the entire roof and anything
that's ever on it is on those trusses and transfered to the outer
walls. Repairs and changes are often done with gussets. The
geometry, specs, placement and even screw spacing and type are part
of the PE's statement.
The reason those plates are hard to pull out is so that they don't
pull out. They are put in by hydraulic presses to apply an even
calculated pressure that is part of the overall geometry of
stresses and loads of the truss. Even the lumber used is part of
the calculation, i.e, SYP, SPF, No 1,2 or 3, cord & web widths.
What you have done may be fine but you will need to show many
buyers a PE's statemnt that says so...and any buyer that gets a
home inspection. Personally, I would go after the bastard for
altering a significant structural component of your home. They may
or may not have needed a permit to do the HVAC work but I bet a
permit is required to modify trusses. Did they get one? The the
inspector sign off on it?
As a buyer I might hear yadda yadda yadda from the seller and much
of it good convincing info. When the seller was done I'd say,
"Great! Show me the approved PE's statement stamped".

And as a seller, I'd say "well, then Mister, find yourself another
house because I'm not hiring a PE or a structural engineer just to
reduce your stomach butterflies".
Since when in our society do we always need such ironclad guarantees,
stamped with approval?
How the hell did they ever manage to build houses before structural
engineers existed? Give me a break...
I raised the roof of a house using 26 ft long rafters to give a clear
span with a 16 ft cathedral ceiling in one part and designed my own
trusses in another. I simply used code books and books on
architectural engineering standards, did the simple math and had it
built, but also doing much of the work myself.
The City's building inspector approved my drawings, signed off on the
inspections and it passed with flying colors. When in doubt, I simply
went up one extra lumber size over what the simple match dictated.
That was done in 1988 and I still own the house and it survived a
tornado that shook the entire building.
It ain't rocket science and no structural enineer is necessary to do
such a simple repair. The orginal poster has done a perfectly
satisfactory job.
Jeez, it's amazing that Monticello is still standing. Jefferson wasn't
a structural engineer...

You're right, it isn't that hard, but consider:
* Most people couldn't find the resources you did. You're exceptional.
* It's easy to solve the problem by overengineering the truss, but a
manufacturer won't do that. They'll build the truss exactly to the
minimum specification to save on cost. I've worked in factories where
they worried about reducing the time to perform a step by two seconds
in order to save a penny or two.
* The legal environment has changed. Jefferson probably didn't even
*have* a building code.
* You might have trouble selling a house with a structural problem.
It's the AC doofus' fault. Make him fix it, and do it so no one could
ever complain about the solution. If nothing else, the doofus needs to
be taught to do what the customer tells him to do.

[h***@aol.com]

Post by Doug

Post by Red Green
You cannot just change trusses. Every piece of a truss has an
effect on the others. Most trusses can be repaired but before
anything you have to have a PE's statement approving it. This is
not just some PITA rule. The weight of the entire roof and anything
that's ever on it is on those trusses and transfered to the outer
walls. Repairs and changes are often done with gussets. The
geometry, specs, placement and even screw spacing and type are part
of the PE's statement.
The reason those plates are hard to pull out is so that they don't
pull out. They are put in by hydraulic presses to apply an even
calculated pressure that is part of the overall geometry of
stresses and loads of the truss. Even the lumber used is part of
the calculation, i.e, SYP, SPF, No 1,2 or 3, cord & web widths.
What you have done may be fine but you will need to show many
buyers a PE's statemnt that says so...and any buyer that gets a
home inspection. �Personally, I would go after the bastard for
altering a significant structural component of your home. They may
or may not have needed a permit to do the HVAC work but I bet a
permit is required to modify trusses. Did they get one? The the
inspector sign off on it?
As a buyer I might hear yadda yadda yadda from the seller and much
of it good convincing info. When the seller was done I'd say,
"Great! Show me the approved PE's statement stamped".

And as a seller, I'd say "well, then Mister, find yourself another
house because I'm not hiring a PE or a structural engineer just to
reduce your stomach butterflies".
Since when in our society do we always need such ironclad guarantees,
stamped with approval?
How the hell did they ever manage to build houses before structural
engineers existed? Give me a break...
I raised the roof of a house using 26 ft long rafters to give a clear
span with a 16 ft cathedral ceiling in one part and designed my own
trusses in another. I simply used code books and books on
architectural engineering standards, did the simple math and had it
built, but also doing much of the work myself.
The City's building inspector approved my drawings, signed off on the
inspections and it passed with flying colors. When in doubt, I simply
went up one extra lumber size over what the simple match dictated.
That was done in 1988 and I still own the house and it survived a
tornado that shook the entire building.
It ain't rocket science and no structural enineer is necessary to do
such a simple repair. The orginal poster has done a perfectly
satisfactory job.
Jeez, it's amazing that Monticello is still standing. Jefferson wasn't
a structural engineer...

�* Most people couldn't find the resources you did. You're exceptional.
�* It's easy to solve the problem by overengineering the truss, but a
manufacturer won't do that. They'll build the truss exactly to the
minimum specification to save on cost. I've worked in factories where
they worried about reducing the time to perform a step by two seconds
in order to save a penny or two.
�* The legal environment has changed. Jefferson probably didn't even
*have* a building code.
�* You might have trouble selling a house with a structural problem.
It's the AC doofus' fault. Make him fix it, and do it so no one could
ever complain about the solution. If nothing else, the doofus needs to
be taught to do what the customer tells him to do.
--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

yeah get professional structural engineer do exactly what they oirder,
get it inspected, and take HVAC hack to small claims court. it will
discourage him from ever doing this again.

when it couldnt fit he should of asked before cutting structural
parts........

say heres the amount you owe, either ay or see you in court.

[Doug]

On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:10:51 +0000 (UTC), "SteveBell"

Post by SteveBell

Post by Doug

Post by Red Green
You cannot just change trusses. Every piece of a truss has an
effect on the others. Most trusses can be repaired but before
anything you have to have a PE's statement approving it. This is
not just some PITA rule. The weight of the entire roof and anything
that's ever on it is on those trusses and transfered to the outer
walls. Repairs and changes are often done with gussets. The
geometry, specs, placement and even screw spacing and type are part
of the PE's statement.
The reason those plates are hard to pull out is so that they don't
pull out. They are put in by hydraulic presses to apply an even
calculated pressure that is part of the overall geometry of
stresses and loads of the truss. Even the lumber used is part of
the calculation, i.e, SYP, SPF, No 1,2 or 3, cord & web widths.
What you have done may be fine but you will need to show many
buyers a PE's statemnt that says so...and any buyer that gets a
home inspection. Personally, I would go after the bastard for
altering a significant structural component of your home. They may
or may not have needed a permit to do the HVAC work but I bet a
permit is required to modify trusses. Did they get one? The the
inspector sign off on it?
As a buyer I might hear yadda yadda yadda from the seller and much
of it good convincing info. When the seller was done I'd say,
"Great! Show me the approved PE's statement stamped".

And as a seller, I'd say "well, then Mister, find yourself another
house because I'm not hiring a PE or a structural engineer just to
reduce your stomach butterflies".
Since when in our society do we always need such ironclad guarantees,
stamped with approval?
How the hell did they ever manage to build houses before structural
engineers existed? Give me a break...
I raised the roof of a house using 26 ft long rafters to give a clear
span with a 16 ft cathedral ceiling in one part and designed my own
trusses in another. I simply used code books and books on
architectural engineering standards, did the simple math and had it
built, but also doing much of the work myself.
The City's building inspector approved my drawings, signed off on the
inspections and it passed with flying colors. When in doubt, I simply
went up one extra lumber size over what the simple match dictated.
That was done in 1988 and I still own the house and it survived a
tornado that shook the entire building.
It ain't rocket science and no structural enineer is necessary to do
such a simple repair. The orginal poster has done a perfectly
satisfactory job.
Jeez, it's amazing that Monticello is still standing. Jefferson wasn't
a structural engineer...

* Most people couldn't find the resources you did. You're exceptional.

Thanks for the ego boost but I don't think I am. Anyone who spends
enough time to analyze the problem could do the same, at least in
terms of the research if not the physical work.

Plus the "resources" are available at most public libraries.

Post by SteveBell
* It's easy to solve the problem by overengineering the truss, but a
manufacturer won't do that. They'll build the truss exactly to the
minimum specification to save on cost. I've worked in factories where
they worried about reducing the time to perform a step by two seconds
in order to save a penny or two.

Precisely.... so one should simply overengineer the repair.

Post by SteveBell
* The legal environment has changed. Jefferson probably didn't even
*have* a building code.

Aye - there's the rub. We've overcomplicated most things in life.

Post by SteveBell
* You might have trouble selling a house with a structural problem.
It's the AC doofus' fault. Make him fix it, and do it so no one could
ever complain about the solution. If nothing else, the doofus needs to
be taught to do what the customer tells him to do.

I can't argue against the above.

Doug

[RicodJour]

Post by Doug

Post by Red Green
You cannot just change trusses. Every piece of a truss has an effect on
the others. Most trusses can be repaired but before anything you have to
have a PE's statement approving it. This is not just some PITA rule. The
weight of the entire roof and anything that's ever on it is on those
trusses and transfered to the outer walls. Repairs and changes are often
done with gussets. The geometry, specs, placement and even screw spacing
and type are part of the PE's statement.
The reason those plates are hard to pull out is so that they don't pull
out. They are put in by hydraulic presses to apply an even calculated
pressure that is part of the overall geometry of stresses and loads of
the truss. Even the lumber used is part of the calculation, i.e, SYP,
SPF, No 1,2 or 3, cord & web widths.
What you have done may be fine but you will need to show many buyers a
PE's statemnt that says so...and any buyer that gets a home inspection.
Personally, I would go after the bastard for altering a significant
structural component of your home. They may or may not have needed a
permit to do the HVAC work but I bet a permit is required to modify
trusses. Did they get one? The the inspector sign off on it?
As a buyer I might hear yadda yadda yadda from the seller and much of it
good convincing info. When the seller was done I'd say, "Great! Show me
the approved PE's statement stamped".

And as a seller, I'd say "well, then Mister, find yourself another
house because I'm not hiring a PE or a structural engineer just to
reduce your stomach butterflies".
Since when in our society do we always need such ironclad guarantees,
stamped with approval?
How the hell did they ever manage to build houses before structural
engineers existed? Give me a break...
I raised the roof of a house using 26 ft long rafters to give a clear
span with a 16 ft cathedral ceiling in one part and designed my own
trusses in another. I simply used code books and books on
architectural engineering standards, did the simple math and had it
built, but also doing much of the work myself.
The City's building inspector approved my drawings, signed off on the
inspections and it passed with flying colors. When in doubt, I simply
went up one extra lumber size over what the simple match dictated.
That was done in 1988 and I still own the house and it survived a
tornado that shook the entire building.
It ain't rocket science and no structural enineer is necessary to do
such a simple repair. The orginal poster has done a perfectly
satisfactory job.
Jeez, it's amazing that Monticello is still standing. Jefferson wasn't
a structural engineer...

In this economy, where the economy is in dire trouble, and there is a
glut of homes for sale - many going begging, you're suggesting turning
away a potential buyer because of several hundred dollars that will
most likely (if the OP has any common sense at all) come out of the AC
guy's pocket.

Forgetting the financial and concentrating on the structural, do you
really expect a buyer, even one as can-do as yourself, to walk into
such a house and not have any questions about the repair, who did it,
whether it was done right, etc.? Are you suggesting that someone can
simply eyeball a truss and tell if the connections and members are
correctly sized?

Buying the house is not entirely up to you unless you're paying cash.
A bank will almost certainly require an inspection and any inspector
worth his salt will red flag such an obvious modification to an
engineered truss.

You can take umbrage at the unfairness of the situation - it just
won't change it.

R

[Edwin Pawlowski]

"RicodJour" <***@worldemail.com> wrote in message
Buying the house is not entirely up to you unless you're paying cash.
A bank will almost certainly require an inspection and any inspector
worth his salt will red flag such an obvious modification to an
engineered truss.

You can take umbrage at the unfairness of the situation - it just
won't change it.

R

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Really? Never had a bank, insurance, or mortgage company ask for
inspection, And I'd never pay for a home inspector because they miss too
many things.

[Doug]

Post by RicodJour
Buying the house is not entirely up to you unless you're paying cash.
A bank will almost certainly require an inspection and any inspector
worth his salt will red flag such an obvious modification to an
engineered truss.
You can take umbrage at the unfairness of the situation - it just
won't change it.
R
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Really? Never had a bank, insurance, or mortgage company ask for
inspection, And I'd never pay for a home inspector because they miss too
many things.

Bravo Edwin,

I've never had to use a home inspector in over 15 home closings.
I've NEVER had a bank require it.
That's a widely held myth.

The only inspection that one bank requried me to get, at the last
moment, was a well water purity test.

Insurance companies do their own inspections, at their own expense, if
they so choose.

Home inspectors have been the cause of blowing up more deals than
they've helped, plus they miss much hidden damage (based on
experiences of two of my friends who had filed lawsuits against home
inspectors). Both lost their lawsuits since the home inspector's
contracts has exclusion clauses stating that they were not responsbile
for hidden damamges.

Both of these friends has inspection reports listing about 30 things
that were wrong with each house. Most of the items listed were trivial
if not invalid. Yet, big items were missed. The reports however, were
VERY impressive to read....

Some routine things that licensed home inspectors, at least those in
my area, never check are:

As mentioned above, well water purity in terms of bacterial and
chemical contamination (a few check flow rates)

Current condition and estimated future life of septic systems.

Condition and likely life of sewer lines and water supply lines.

Termite, carpenter ant and powder post beetle infestations (unless the
infestations are OBVIOUS).

Yet, all of the above are big ticket items that if defective will cost
a homeowner more dollars than almost anything else.

In any event, a home purchase is probably the single most important
purchase in someone's life. A buyer should take the time to educate
themselves and not always depend on others. Educate
yourself....educate yourself....educate yourself.
That's my Mantra.

Doug

[aemeijers]

Post by Doug

Post by RicodJour
Buying the house is not entirely up to you unless you're paying cash.
A bank will almost certainly require an inspection and any inspector
worth his salt will red flag such an obvious modification to an
engineered truss.
You can take umbrage at the unfairness of the situation - it just
won't change it.
R
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Really? Never had a bank, insurance, or mortgage company ask for
inspection, And I'd never pay for a home inspector because they miss too
many things.

Bravo Edwin,
I've never had to use a home inspector in over 15 home closings.
I've NEVER had a bank require it.
That's a widely held myth.
The only inspection that one bank requried me to get, at the last
moment, was a well water purity test.
Insurance companies do their own inspections, at their own expense, if
they so choose.
Home inspectors have been the cause of blowing up more deals than
they've helped, plus they miss much hidden damage (based on
experiences of two of my friends who had filed lawsuits against home
inspectors). Both lost their lawsuits since the home inspector's
contracts has exclusion clauses stating that they were not responsbile
for hidden damamges.
Both of these friends has inspection reports listing about 30 things
that were wrong with each house. Most of the items listed were trivial
if not invalid. Yet, big items were missed. The reports however, were
VERY impressive to read....
Some routine things that licensed home inspectors, at least those in

(snip)

Agreed, based on my limited experience, home inspections may be useful
as a negotiating tool, but that is about it. Mine told me nothing I
didn't already know, but I grew up in the business, no I'm not a real
good sample. Someone who didn't have my background would have found the
$350 dollar report impressive. The previous owners obviously did (only
one round of counter-offers, to bring sale price down 12k), so it was
still money well spent. But having said that- with each new project I
undertake (ever so slowly), I find new problems that were not readily
apparent. So far, nothing life-threatening, but it tends to dampen
enthusiasm for starting the next project.

--
aem sends...

[Gordie]

What do you do when there is already a load like an AC unit and the truss brakes directly underneath? Do I need to remove the load before I fix the truss? Also do I need to jack up where the weight went before I jack up where the truss broke

[Ed Pawlowski]

Post by Gordie
What do you do when there is already a load like an AC unit and the
truss brakes directly underneath? Do I need to remove the load before I
fix the truss? Also do I need to jack up where the weight went before I
jack up where the truss broke?

Few possible ways to fix it. Yes, the weight has to be supported and
jacked to proper height.

If you replace the section with the same size material chances are it
will break again. You may be able to sister it on both sides with long
enough pieces to extend all the way to the ends.

You may want to look if you can add a couple of vertical struts from the
support to part above to spread the load.

[trader_4]

What do you do when there is already a load like an AC unit and the truss brakes directly underneath? Do I need to remove the load before I fix the truss? Also do I need to jack up where the weight went before I jack up where the truss broke?
--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/repairing-the-roof-truss-333351-.htm

Is this actually a truss of some kind or just a ceiling joist? If it's a joist,
will be easier. You don't need to remove the load if you can get enough
access to it, but with an AC sitting there, that seems doubtful. Generally,
like Ed said, you sister it with two new joists on either side. You can also
use metal plates that are the length and width of the joist and of sufficient
thickness, with holes drilled in them, staggered along the span. Put one
on each side and drill holes through the bad joist and bolt it up. It essentially
forms a steel I beam.

Not sure what you mean by jack up where the weight went before jacking
up the truss.

You might also be able to lift the AC unit up enough to get access without
disconnecting refrigerant lines by temporarily supporting it using four roof
rafters and suitable attachment with a couple of come along ratchets.
All depends on what we can't see and how much this AC weighs. And make
sure not to put any additional weight on the bad joist or support it from
below during any repair.

[Red Green]

Post by Doug

Post by Red Green
You cannot just change trusses. Every piece of a truss has an effect on
the others. Most trusses can be repaired but before anything you have to
have a PE's statement approving it. This is not just some PITA rule. The
weight of the entire roof and anything that's ever on it is on those
trusses and transfered to the outer walls. Repairs and changes are often
done with gussets. The geometry, specs, placement and even screw spacing
and type are part of the PE's statement.
The reason those plates are hard to pull out is so that they don't pull
out. They are put in by hydraulic presses to apply an even calculated
pressure that is part of the overall geometry of stresses and loads of
the truss. Even the lumber used is part of the calculation, i.e, SYP,
SPF, No 1,2 or 3, cord & web widths.
What you have done may be fine but you will need to show many buyers a
PE's statemnt that says so...and any buyer that gets a home inspection.
Personally, I would go after the bastard for altering a significant
structural component of your home. They may or may not have needed a
permit to do the HVAC work but I bet a permit is required to modify
trusses. Did they get one? The the inspector sign off on it?
As a buyer I might hear yadda yadda yadda from the seller and much of it
good convincing info. When the seller was done I'd say, "Great! Show me
the approved PE's statement stamped".

And as a seller, I'd say "well, then Mister, find yourself another
house because I'm not hiring a PE or a structural engineer just to
reduce your stomach butterflies".
Since when in our society do we always need such ironclad guarantees,
stamped with approval?
How the hell did they ever manage to build houses before structural
engineers existed? Give me a break...
I raised the roof of a house using 26 ft long rafters to give a clear
span with a 16 ft cathedral ceiling in one part and designed my own
trusses in another. I simply used code books and books on
architectural engineering standards, did the simple math and had it
built, but also doing much of the work myself.
The City's building inspector approved my drawings, signed off on the
inspections and it passed with flying colors. When in doubt, I simply
went up one extra lumber size over what the simple match dictated.
That was done in 1988 and I still own the house and it survived a
tornado that shook the entire building.
It ain't rocket science and no structural enineer is necessary to do
such a simple repair. The orginal poster has done a perfectly
satisfactory job.
Jeez, it's amazing that Monticello is still standing. Jefferson wasn't
a structural engineer...
Doug

Can't say anyone could disagree with you Doug on many of your building
points.

Post by Doug
I'd say "well, then Mister, find yourself another
house because I'm not hiring a PE or a structural engineer

Back a few years when people were wacky outbidding each other while the
seller sat back and heard $cha-ching$ I probably would say the same. But
that was then and it's gone - for now. Today is what it is.

I myself have a place where a truss web was cut by AC people somewhere
along the line to put a return duct. I mean all they had to do was use a
few more feet of duct to go around it. I assume to save a few bucks it was
easier to whack the web. When I had the new AC system put in I had them
properly route the new return duct.

There was like only a couple of sq inches of plate on each side on each end
fastened into the wedged in end. All I had to do to put a new web piece in
was cut that 1-2 square inch corner of the truss plate with a Roto_zip on
ONE SIDE on each end and pop the cut ends out.

See: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33o1um1&s=4

No lumber geometry changes at all. Never disturbed any other part of the
plates. Cut and put in new web piece, same SYP #2 (with markings).
Compressed back into existing plate corner on one side using screw clamps
and a couple of steel plates for even pressure, then a small gusset.

Is what I've done satisfactory structurally? I'd say so but I really don't
know. It's certainly better than the way it's been for the past 20 yrs or
so. Is it legit? No. No PE statement. I'll just deal with it when I sell.
Since there were no geometry changes, I used the same lumber and did not
disturb any of the other connections, I assume if I don't get a signoff any
further work will be minimal.

If it's raised as an issue in:

Sellers market: Tell them to pound sand. Too many eager buyers out there.
Buyers market: Pay the damn engineer for paperwork and move on.
Neutral market: Tell buyer we'll have a PE come in. If he says it's OK
as is then you pay for it since you insisted on it. If he
says it needs beefing up/alterations then I'll pay the fee
and make the changes.

The market and my situation then will drive what I do/don't do.

[n***@hotmail.com]

Post by Red Green

Post by Doug

Post by Red Green
You cannot just change trusses. Every piece of a truss has an effect on
the others. Most trusses can be repaired but before anything you have to
have a PE's statement approving it. This is not just some PITA rule. The
weight of the entire roof and anything that's ever on it is on those
trusses and transfered to the outer walls. Repairs and changes are often
done with gussets. The geometry, specs, placement and even screw spacing
and type are part of the PE's statement.
The reason those plates are hard to pull out is so that they don't pull
out. They are put in by hydraulic presses to apply an even calculated
pressure that is part of the overall geometry of stresses and loads of
the truss. Even the lumber used is part of the calculation, i.e, SYP,
SPF, No 1,2 or 3, cord & web widths.
What you have done may be fine but you will need to show many buyers a
PE's statemnt that says so...and any buyer that gets a home inspection.
Personally, I would go after the bastard for altering a significant
structural component of your home. They may or may not have needed a
permit to do the HVAC work but I bet a permit is required to modify
trusses. Did they get one? The the inspector sign off on it?
As a buyer I might hear yadda yadda yadda from the seller and much of it
good convincing info. When the seller was done I'd say, "Great! Show me
the approved PE's statement stamped".

And as a seller, I'd say "well, then Mister, find yourself another
house because I'm not hiring a PE or a structural engineer just to
reduce your stomach butterflies".
Since when in our society do we always need such ironclad guarantees,
stamped with approval?
How the hell did they ever manage to build houses before structural
engineers existed? Give me a break...
I raised the roof of a house using 26 ft long rafters to give a clear
span with a 16 ft cathedral ceiling in one part and designed my own
trusses in another. I simply used code books and books on
architectural engineering standards, did the simple math and had it
built, but also doing much of the work myself.
The City's building inspector approved my drawings, signed off on the
inspections and it passed with flying colors. When in doubt, I simply
went up one extra lumber size over what the simple match dictated.
That was done in 1988 and I still own the house and it survived a
tornado that shook the entire building.
It ain't rocket science and no structural enineer is necessary to do
such a simple repair. The orginal poster has done a perfectly
satisfactory job.
Jeez, it's amazing that Monticello is still standing. Jefferson wasn't
a structural engineer...
Doug

Can't say anyone could disagree with you Doug on many of your building
points.

Post by Doug
I'd say "well, then Mister, find yourself another
house because I'm not hiring a PE or a structural engineer

Back a few years when people were wacky outbidding each other while the
seller sat back and heard $cha-ching$ I probably would say the same. But
that was then and it's gone - for now. Today is what it is.
I myself have a place where a truss web was cut by AC people somewhere
along the line to put a return duct. I mean all they had to do was use a
few more feet of duct to go around it. I assume to save a few bucks it was
easier to whack the web. When I had the new AC system put in I had them
properly route the new return duct.
There was like only a couple of sq inches of plate on each side on each end
fastened into the wedged in end. All I had to do to put a new web piece in
was cut that 1-2 square inch corner of the truss plate with a Roto_zip on
ONE SIDE on each end and pop the cut ends out.
See:http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33o1um1&s=4
No lumber geometry changes at all. Never disturbed any other part of the
plates. Cut and put in new web piece, same SYP #2 (with markings).
Compressed back into existing plate corner on one side using screw clamps
and a couple of steel plates for even pressure, then a small gusset.
Is what I've done satisfactory structurally? I'd say so but I really don't
know. It's certainly better than the way it's been for the past 20 yrs or
so. Is it legit? No. No PE statement. I'll just deal with it when I sell.
Since there were no geometry changes, I used the same lumber and did not
disturb any of the other connections, I assume if I don't get a signoff any
further work will be minimal.
Sellers market: Tell them to pound sand. Too many eager buyers out there.
Buyers market:  Pay the damn engineer for paperwork and move on.
Neutral market: Tell buyer we'll have a PE come in. If he says it's OK
                    as is then you pay for it since you insisted on it. If he
                    says it needs beefing up/alterations then I'll pay the fee
                    and make the changes.
The market and my situation then will drive what I do/don't do.

I wish I saw that picture you linked above before I strated to pull
out those plates. I did not think of trimming those corners. Now I
have half of them pulled out completely and half of them pulled out
enough to get the lumber out but still attached to the joint. However
it's so bent our of shape I am thinking I need to bite the bullet and
get them all out and use plywood gussets when I repair them.

Thanks.

[SteveBell]

Post by MiamiCuse
I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new
condenser unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with
new drain line and drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be
removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space.
I specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and
I don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done,
they cut two of my rafters out!!! I asked him and he said it had to
be done or else it wouldn't fit. So I had to figure out a way to fix
what he did.
This is what the two members used to look like, the piece that goes
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020494A.jpg
In order to fix this, I remove the left over pieces he cut from the
bottom and top connection. Took me a long time because there are
plates with hundreds of teeth biting into several pieces of framing
at the same time, there was not enough elbow room to work or get
leverage so it took me a long time. Once I got them out, I replaced
them with a piece going from the bottom to the top only at a steeper
angle, then I ran another piece from there to the high point. So
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020491.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020495.jpg
Will this work? I think it should but want to double check.
Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to
pull out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend"
backwards to let loose the piece of wood. Is there a tool to remove
these metal plates? I was up there almost 4 hours just prying the
plates out.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020490.jpg

Your changes are probably OK, but you definitely need to replace the
gusset plates. I recommend you have a structural engineer take a look.

The official position of our Habitat for Humanity crew chiefs is that
if you do anything to the truss, you need an engineer to recertify
it--so don't do anything to a truss. The real problem comes when you
fail the inspection.

I don't know how things work where you are, but around here you could
have trouble selling your house. The buyer's inspector might flag the
changes, then the buyer's mortgage or insurance company could refuse to
accept the house without either changes or engineer certification.

The engineer's bill, and the bill from the carpenter who fixes the
problem (even if that's you), should go to the AC company.

[unknown]

On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:17:14 -0400, "MiamiCuse"

Post by MiamiCuse
I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new condenser
unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with new drain line and
drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I don't
want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they cut two of my
rafters out!!! I asked him and he said it had to be done or else it
wouldn't fit. So I had to figure out a way to fix what he did.
This is what the two members used to look like, the piece that goes from the
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020494A.jpg
In order to fix this, I remove the left over pieces he cut from the bottom
and top connection. Took me a long time because there are plates with
hundreds of teeth biting into several pieces of framing at the same time,
there was not enough elbow room to work or get leverage so it took me a long
time. Once I got them out, I replaced them with a piece going from the
bottom to the top only at a steeper angle, then I ran another piece from
there to the high point. So basically replacing one member with two. Here
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020491.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020495.jpg
Will this work? I think it should but want to double check.
Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to pull
out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend" backwards to let
loose the piece of wood. Is there a tool to remove these metal plates? I
was up there almost 4 hours just prying the plates out.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020490.jpg
Thanks,
MC

Man did you ever get screwed. I'd hire a structural engineer, have him
write a report and then go after the hack ac jockey that cut you
trusses.

[t***@bellsouth.net]

Post by MiamiCuse
I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new condenser
unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with new drain line and
drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space.  I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I don't
want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they cut two of my
rafters out!!!  I asked him and he said it had to be done or else it
wouldn't fit.  So I had to figure out a way to fix what he did.
This is what the two members used to look like, the piece that goes from the
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020494A.jpg
In order to fix this, I remove the left over pieces he cut from the bottom
and top connection.  Took me a long time because there are plates with
hundreds of teeth biting into several pieces of framing at the same time,
there was not enough elbow room to work or get leverage so it took me a long
time.  Once I got them out, I replaced them with a piece going from the
bottom to the top only at a steeper angle, then I ran another piece from
there to the high point.  So basically replacing one member with two.  Here
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020491.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020495.jpg
Will this work?  I think it should but want to double check.
Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to pull
out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend" backwards to let
loose the piece of wood.  Is there a tool to remove these metal plates?  I
was up there almost 4 hours just prying the plates out.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020490.jpg
Thanks,
MC

Read Rico & Red Green again, then find an engineer.
I would be much less worried about future buyers than about future
hurricanes.
T

[aemeijers]

Post by MiamiCuse
I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new condenser
unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with new drain line and
drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I don't
want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they cut two of my
rafters out!!! I asked him and he said it had to be done or else it
wouldn't fit. So I had to figure out a way to fix what he did.
This is what the two members used to look like, the piece that goes from the
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020494A.jpg
In order to fix this, I remove the left over pieces he cut from the bottom
and top connection. Took me a long time because there are plates with
hundreds of teeth biting into several pieces of framing at the same time,
there was not enough elbow room to work or get leverage so it took me a long
time. Once I got them out, I replaced them with a piece going from the
bottom to the top only at a steeper angle, then I ran another piece from
there to the high point. So basically replacing one member with two. Here
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020491.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020495.jpg
Will this work? I think it should but want to double check.
Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to pull
out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend" backwards to let
loose the piece of wood. Is there a tool to remove these metal plates? I
was up there almost 4 hours just prying the plates out.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020490.jpg
Thanks,
MC

I'm no engineer, but the seat of my pants says you did okay. There was
no need to remove the nailer plates- if they got in the way, all you
needed to do was trim them with a saber saw and a metal blade. Just for
giggles, I'd gusset your new joints with metal or even plywood plates,
screwed into place. That will help keep the joints tight when the roof
system flexes in high wind. The big-box, in the deck and framing aisle,
sells all sorts of pre-made brace plates that would work.

--
aem sends...

[dadiOH]

Post by MiamiCuse
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I
don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they
cut two of my rafters out!!!

You told him not to cut, he did. So why are *you* fixing them? BTW, they
are trusses, not rafteers.

[MiamiCuse]

Post by dadiOH

Post by MiamiCuse
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I
don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they
cut two of my rafters out!!!

You told him not to cut, he did. So why are *you* fixing them? BTW, they
are trusses, not rafteers.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

I told him to leave along ANY wood framing, ANY - trusses, rafters, joists,
bottom plates etc...I said the only thing he can cut is sheet rock and
furring strips for the ceiling sheet rock.

He said no problem.

I am so furious.

[Bob F]

Post by MiamiCuse

Post by MiamiCuse
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I
don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they
cut two of my rafters out!!!

You told him not to cut, he did. So why are *you* fixing them? BTW, they are
trusses, not rafteers.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

I told him to leave along ANY wood framing, ANY - trusses, rafters, joists,
bottom plates etc...I said the only thing he can cut is sheet rock and furring
strips for the ceiling sheet rock.
He said no problem.
I am so furious.

Next time, write it into the contract. It means a lot more then.

[SteveBell]

Post by MiamiCuse

Post by MiamiCuse
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same
space. I specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders
will fit and I don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when
they were done, they cut two of my rafters out!!!

You told him not to cut, he did. So why are you fixing them? BTW,
they are trusses, not rafteers.

I told him to leave along ANY wood framing, ANY - trusses, rafters,
joists, bottom plates etc...I said the only thing he can cut is sheet
rock and furring strips for the ceiling sheet rock.
He said no problem.
I am so furious.

Channel that fury.

Do you know any attorneys? It would be worth asking them how to handle
the situation and what they'd charge to write a nasty letter to the
doofus.

Have you talked to him about what he did? Does he act sorry, hang his
head, and offer to fix it? What about his boss? Give them a chance to
do the right thing, then have your attorney write that letter.

[Red Green]

Post by SteveBell

Post by MiamiCuse

Post by MiamiCuse
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same
space. I specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders
will fit and I don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when
they were done, they cut two of my rafters out!!!

You told him not to cut, he did. So why are you fixing them? BTW,
they are trusses, not rafteers.

I told him to leave along ANY wood framing, ANY - trusses, rafters,
joists, bottom plates etc...I said the only thing he can cut is sheet
rock and furring strips for the ceiling sheet rock.
He said no problem.
I am so furious.

Channel that fury.
Do you know any attorneys? It would be worth asking them how to handle
the situation and what they'd charge to write a nasty letter to the
doofus.
Have you talked to him about what he did? Does he act sorry, hang his
head, and offer to fix it? What about his boss? Give them a chance to
do the right thing, then have your attorney write that letter.

Attorney$ cost whether you are right or wrong. I bet he could use the
system itself.

I'm betting to do anything to a truss you need a permit. Did they get a
permit? No. What inspector would have signed off on that?! Call the city
inspections dept. Ask if a permit is needed to cut a truss for some attic
HVAC work. OK, done with inpsection dept.

WRITE, (I repeat, WRITE) the HVAC place. Send it certified with a return
receipt request. Tell them you want copies of the permit and final
inspection with specifics on cutting your trusses. If they say they did
do it legit then you should be able to verify with permits/inspections
dept records. If you found they lied about that then you write again,
same terms, You want whatever it takes them to get you a PE statement
signed off and stamped with a seal in 30 days. If you don't get it you
will begin to resolve through the permits and inspections department.
This will get their attention since an issue of this type would affect
their business to get future permits (if they ever get them at all).

IF the OP paid by credit card that would be great. A second parallel
attack on the hack. WRITE the credit card company IMMEDIATELY and dispute
the charges. Hopefully OP has not paid those charges yet. Still may have
recourse.

I think there's a lot the OP can do at this point without the courts with
promising results at little or no cost except for his time. I'd say worth
it. Between getting an PE to come out (field visit fee), drawing up
approves doc, then contractors fee to repair, easily a grand. Pure guess
and probably conservative. It could very well end up a legal issue anyway
of course.

[n***@hotmail.com]

Post by Red Green

Post by SteveBell

Post by MiamiCuse

Post by MiamiCuse
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same
space.  I specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders
will fit and I don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when
they were done, they cut two of my rafters out!!!

You told him not to cut, he did. So why are you fixing them?  BTW,
they  are trusses, not rafteers.

I told him to leave along ANY wood framing, ANY - trusses, rafters,
joists, bottom plates etc...I said the only thing he can cut is sheet
rock and furring strips for the ceiling sheet rock.
He said no problem.
I am so furious.

Channel that fury.
Do you know any attorneys? It would be worth asking them how to handle
the situation and what they'd charge to write a nasty letter to the
doofus.
Have you talked to him about what he did? Does he act sorry, hang his
head, and offer to fix it? What about his boss? Give them a chance to
do the right thing, then have your attorney write that letter.

Attorney$ cost whether you are right or wrong. I bet he could use the
system itself.
I'm betting to do anything to a truss you need a permit. Did they get a
permit? No. What inspector would have signed off on that?! Call the city
inspections dept. Ask if a permit is needed to cut a truss for some attic
HVAC work. OK, done with inpsection dept.
WRITE, (I repeat, WRITE) the HVAC place. Send it certified with a return
receipt request. Tell them you want copies of the permit and final
inspection with specifics on cutting your trusses. If they say they did
do it legit then you should be able to verify with permits/inspections
dept records. If you found they lied about that then you write again,
same terms, You want whatever it takes them to get you a PE statement
signed off and stamped with a seal in 30 days. If you don't get it you
will begin to resolve through the permits and inspections department.
This will get their attention since an issue of this type would affect
their business to get future permits (if they ever get them at all).
IF the OP paid by credit card that would be great. A second parallel
attack on the hack. WRITE the credit card company IMMEDIATELY and dispute
the charges. Hopefully OP has not paid those charges yet. Still may have
recourse.
I think there's a lot the OP can do at this point without the courts with
promising results at little or no cost except for his time. I'd say worth
it. Between getting an PE to come out (field visit fee), drawing up
approves doc, then contractors fee to repair, easily a grand. Pure guess
and probably conservative. It could very well end up a legal issue anyway
of course.

Well I have made calls to the place and now it's a phone game with
them, "the manager will call me back..." and nothing.

I am not sure what I can do now realistically. I made a mistake of
not writing this into the contract, and have since out of frustration
and panic did some work myself to "fix" it so I am sure they will say
they did something but I did something too...a mess basically.

Thanks.

[Red Green]

Post by n***@hotmail.com

Post by Red Green

Post by SteveBell

Post by MiamiCuse

Post by MiamiCuse
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same
space.  I specifically told him to make sure the unit he
orders will fit and I don't want to have to cut any rafters,
and when they were done, they cut two of my rafters out!!!

You told him not to cut, he did. So why are you fixing them?
 BTW, they  are trusses, not rafteers.

I told him to leave along ANY wood framing, ANY - trusses,
rafters, joists, bottom plates etc...I said the only thing he can
cut is sheet rock and furring strips for the ceiling sheet rock.
He said no problem.
I am so furious.

Channel that fury.
Do you know any attorneys? It would be worth asking them how to
handle the situation and what they'd charge to write a nasty letter
to the doofus.
Have you talked to him about what he did? Does he act sorry, hang
his head, and offer to fix it? What about his boss? Give them a
chance to do the right thing, then have your attorney write that
letter.

Attorney$ cost whether you are right or wrong. I bet he could use the
system itself.
I'm betting to do anything to a truss you need a permit. Did they get
a permit? No. What inspector would have signed off on that?! Call the
city inspections dept. Ask if a permit is needed to cut a truss for
some attic HVAC work. OK, done with inpsection dept.
WRITE, (I repeat, WRITE) the HVAC place. Send it certified with a
return receipt request. Tell them you want copies of the permit and
final inspection with specifics on cutting your trusses. If they say
they did do it legit then you should be able to verify with
permits/inspections dept records. If you found they lied about that
then you write again, same terms, You want whatever it takes them to
get you a PE statement signed off and stamped with a seal in 30 days.
If you don't get it you will begin to resolve through the permits and
inspections department. This will get their attention since an issue
of this type would affect their business to get future permits (if
they ever get them at all).
IF the OP paid by credit card that would be great. A second parallel
attack on the hack. WRITE the credit card company IMMEDIATELY and
dispute the charges. Hopefully OP has not paid those charges yet.
Still may have recourse.
I think there's a lot the OP can do at this point without the courts
with promising results at little or no cost except for his time. I'd
say worth it. Between getting an PE to come out (field visit fee),
drawing up approves doc, then contractors fee to repair, easily a
grand. Pure guess and probably conservative. It could very well end
up a legal issue anyway of course.

Well I have made calls to the place and now it's a phone game with
them, "the manager will call me back..." and nothing.
I am not sure what I can do now realistically. I made a mistake of
not writing this into the contract, and have since out of frustration
and panic did some work myself to "fix" it so I am sure they will say
they did something but I did something too...a mess basically.
Thanks.
...so I am sure they will say they did something but I did
something too...a mess basically.

IF they respond, you can bet once they see pulled plates they will say any
gusset and 90% of lumber work needed is because of that. And that they
could have rectified the problem without an engineer or extensive work in
an hour. Maybe (big one) offer you a piss-ant couple of hundred bucks. Last
one who touches anything "owns it" from then on whether it be your attic, a
software program or a car motor. After viewing it (if they do), I doubt
they would touch it at this point.

Hate to be so pessimistic but that is the reality from my Mr Nobody wanna-
be world. Hopefully I am all wet with paranoia. I love to see someone
respond to this and say Red Green is full of shit and here's a resolution
be it a rectification or legal directive.

[RicodJour]

Post by Red Green
IF they respond, you can bet once they see pulled plates they will say any
gusset and 90% of lumber work needed is because of that. And that they
could have rectified the problem without an engineer or extensive work in
an hour. Maybe (big one) offer you a piss-ant couple of hundred bucks. Last
one who touches anything "owns it" from then on whether it be your attic, a
software program or a car motor. After viewing it (if they do), I doubt
they would touch it at this point.
Hate to be so pessimistic but that is the reality from my Mr Nobody wanna-
be world. Hopefully I am all wet with paranoia. I love to see someone
respond to this and say Red Green is full of shit and here's a resolution
be it a rectification or legal directive.

Can I think say you're full of shit even if I agree with you? ;)

I think it's even a darker picture than you're painting. The OP now
has modified the structure of his house (with help) without going
through engineering and permitting. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if
a hurricane does blow through and there is damage to the roof the
insurance company would not pay out.

R

[dadiOH]

Post by RicodJour

Post by Red Green
IF they respond, you can bet once they see pulled plates they will
say any gusset and 90% of lumber work needed is because of that. And
that they could have rectified the problem without an engineer or
extensive work in an hour. Maybe (big one) offer you a piss-ant
couple of hundred bucks. Last one who touches anything "owns it"
from then on whether it be your attic, a software program or a car
motor. After viewing it (if they do), I doubt they would touch it at
this point.
Hate to be so pessimistic but that is the reality from my Mr Nobody
wanna- be world. Hopefully I am all wet with paranoia. I love to see
someone respond to this and say Red Green is full of shit and here's
a resolution be it a rectification or legal directive.

Can I think say you're full of shit even if I agree with you? ;)
I think it's even a darker picture than you're painting. The OP now
has modified the structure of his house (with help) without going
through engineering and permitting. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if
a hurricane does blow through and there is damage to the roof the
insurance company would not pay out.

He can hope for total destruction so the modification won't be found :)

[Red Green]

Post by RicodJour
Can I think say you're full of shit even if I agree with you? ;)

I checked my eyes in the mirror and they are not brown but I do have this
nasty taste in my mouth. You're really close to being right.

[dpb]

Red Green wrote:
...

Post by Red Green
Hate to be so pessimistic but that is the reality from my Mr Nobody wanna-
be world. Hopefully I am all wet with paranoia. I love to see someone
respond to this and say Red Green is full of shit and here's a resolution
be it a rectification or legal directive.

...

Well, I'll step up...you're fos :)

While it would have been better the HVAC supplier got a fitting air
handler or made a modification rather than the cut, aiu the description
only two widely separated trusses were cut.

In all likelihood it could be left as is and never be a problem, but the
modification noted below to add a header across the adjacent trusses and
replacing the cut chord will work just fine.

I'm also not in the camp of the other "sky is falling" posters on some
dire consequence of insurance or other issues at a future sale time,
etc., ...

It's great drama, but not much more than that...

--

[RicodJour]

Post by dpb
...

Post by Red Green
Hate to be so pessimistic but that is the reality from my Mr Nobody wanna-
be world. Hopefully I am all wet with paranoia. I love to see someone
respond to this and say Red Green is full of shit and here's a resolution
be it a rectification or legal directive.

...
Well, I'll step up...you're fos :)
While it would have been better the HVAC supplier got a fitting air
handler or made a modification rather than the cut, aiu the description
only two widely separated trusses were cut.
In all likelihood it could be left as is and never be a problem, but the
modification noted below to add a header across the adjacent trusses and
replacing the cut chord will work just fine.
I'm also not in the camp of the other "sky is falling" posters on some
dire consequence of insurance or other issues at a future sale time,
etc., ...
It's great drama, but not much more than that...

Indeed. We should be congratulating the OP on having reduced the dead
load on the building by the weight of the removed truss members.

I'm curious how you determine risk. The OP's house is in an hurricane
alley. I was under the impression that no one really knew exactly
where, when and how destructive a particular hurricane will be. It
sounds as if you have some advance word that the OP's house is safe.
As a regular I'm sure you are aware that the OP has been posting about
his trials and tribulations as he progresses through the repairs and
remodeling of his house. I am not sure what other modifications were
made, and whether they were seat-of-the-pants or permitted. There are
simply too many variables to say he doesn't have to worry. It might
be just a viewpoint thing - it's his money at risk and not yours.

The risk v reward thing would indicate that the downside is
substantial, while the repair would be fairly minimal - and most
likely should be coming out of someone else's pocket. Even if the OP
does a _perfect_ repair, the insurance company would look to weasel
out of paying out. The modified truss gives them an easy out.

R

[dpb]

RicodJour wrote:
...

... the insurance company would look to weasel
out of paying out. The modified truss gives them an easy out.

BS...

--

[dpb]

...

... the insurance company would look to weasel
out of paying out. The modified truss gives them an easy out.

BS...

Sorry, second line got erased inadvertently...

Can you or anybody else find any evidence of such minor modification
(post repair) actually being the basis for a claim rejection?

--

[RicodJour]

Post by dpb

...

... the insurance company would look to weasel
out of paying out.  The modified truss gives them an easy out.

BS...

Sorry, second line got erased inadvertently...

It's OK - senior moments can happen to anyone. ;)

Post by dpb
Can you or anybody else find any evidence of such minor modification
(post repair) actually being the basis for a claim rejection?

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southeast/2006/07/26/70811.htm?print=1
That's even a flimsier excuse for denying a claim, but denied it was.

This one
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=wi&vol=wisctapp2\2005\03-2051&invol=1
shows that an insurance company will walk away from damage resulting
from a deliberate act of construction (in the linked to case, it
involved cutting trusses, and of course there are some differences -
the thrust still addresses your request).

It may not make sense to you, but it does happen. You do seem to be
pretty casual about the OP's risk. The OP is the one who mentioned
his concern about upcoming hurricanes.
"However, the reality of the situation is, I need to fix this problem,
as I don't know if another hurricane may hit south Florida some time
in the next month while I sit on this, and that's why I tried to fix
this last week after I saw what he did. I have to implement a remedy
and worry about collection of that cost later."
The OP is the one who is concerned about a hurricane damaging their
house.

To the OP: Even if you're in a hurry, you should follow the process.
By taking matters into your own hands and starting the repair on your
own you've "bought" the situation as others have pointed out. It will
probably be much harder to get satisfaction. Sending registered
letters, getting quotes and informing the AC company of intended
actions and dates makes future actions (small claims, lawsuit, repair)
easier later.

R

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Post by dpb
Can you or anybody else find any evidence of such minor modification
(post repair) actually being the basis for a claim rejection?

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/southeast/2006/07/26/70811.htm?print=1
That's even a flimsier excuse for denying a claim, but denied it was.

This one
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=wi&vol=wisctapp2\2005\03-2051&invol=1
shows that an insurance company will walk away from damage resulting
from a deliberate act of construction (in the linked to case, it
involved cutting trusses, and of course there are some differences -
the thrust still addresses your request).

********************************************************************************************

These two cases do not answer the question. There were violations of law,
poorly designed trusses from the outset (not a modification) There may be
other factors
"Alfa Insurance officials would not comment, citing client confidentiality"


In the second case, it is more than just roof trusses, but other workmanship
and damage. Sounds like a contractual issue.

"During the installation process, Sigmund cut three roof trusses. Paulan
alleges that the cutting of the roof trusses rendered the home structurally
unsafe, prevented the completion of shingling the roof, left the home not
properly protected from the weather, and as a result, the home could not be
occupied for a significant period. Paulan claims that Sigmund breached the
terms of the written proposal by failing to perform work in a good and
workmanlike manner."

[Pat]

Post by MiamiCuse
I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new condenser
unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with new drain line and
drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space.  I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I don't
want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they cut two of my
rafters out!!!  I asked him and he said it had to be done or else it
wouldn't fit.  So I had to figure out a way to fix what he did.
This is what the two members used to look like, the piece that goes from the
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020494A.jpg
In order to fix this, I remove the left over pieces he cut from the bottom
and top connection.  Took me a long time because there are plates with
hundreds of teeth biting into several pieces of framing at the same time,
there was not enough elbow room to work or get leverage so it took me a long
time.  Once I got them out, I replaced them with a piece going from the
bottom to the top only at a steeper angle, then I ran another piece from
there to the high point.  So basically replacing one member with two.  Here
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020491.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020495.jpg
Will this work?  I think it should but want to double check.
Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to pull
out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend" backwards to let
loose the piece of wood.  Is there a tool to remove these metal plates?  I
was up there almost 4 hours just prying the plates out.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020490.jpg
Thanks,
MC

There is ONE way to remove those metal things: heat them. You see in
a fire -- not even a particularly big one -- the attic can got so hot
(without actually catching fire) that all of those little metal things
pull out. I don't know if they twist or if the wood does, but anyway
when the fire department arrives they get up on the roof, the roof
collapses, and the firemen get killed/hurt. That's why in NY and NJ
you need to have a sticker on the door of any building (except single
family homes) that have trusses in either the floor or ceiling. The
sticker identifies the type of truss and the location.

Now, with that level of concern re trusses, you want to monkey around
with them when you're in a hurricane area? At least you don't have
snow loads to deal with.

Even if you could remove the rest of the metal piece and install a new
one, I think you might have to do some jacking to keep everything in
place.

Good luck with it.

[n***@hotmail.com]

OK, just an update on the situation.

I spoke to the tech and he said I will need to talk to the manager who
is "travelling" this week...I think it will be a back and forth
playing dumb - I may need to write them a letter.

However, the reality of the situation is, I need to fix this problem,
as I don't know if another hurricane may hit south Florida some time
in the next month while I sit on this, and that's why I tried to fix
this last week after I saw what he did. I have to implement a remedy
and worry about collection of that cost later.

Here are my issues.

(1) Since two truss members were cut, I have a total of 4 joints to
deal with, and a total of 8 joint gussets. In my repair, I had to
remove the existing piece of wood sticking out of it and I did it by
prying, hammering, pulling - and I was able to pull out three pieces
completely and the other five I bent, twisted, peeled back to let
loose of the lumber and they are still there. Given the circumstances
I think I have to pull them all out right? Hammering them back in
place will do no good.

(2) I will need to talk to the structures people in my company to get
some idea on the proper repair. Basically here is my truss
originally:

Loading Image...

It spans 22 feet between two 8" exterior concrete block walls. The
rafters are 2x6 and extended 4 feet beyond the wall for the overhang
soffit ceiling. On each side of the crown are two 2x3 lumber at 45
degrees. The trusses are like that for the entire 70 feet of the
house on this wing, and they are spaced 24" apart. These two that are
cut are along are located 22' and 24' from one end, about 1/3 of the
way.

This is what it looks like after he made the cut. The AC handler is
under the crown and he cut two 2x3 to make room for it. He also hung
the unit from the rafters so there is a bit more compression there.

Loading Image...

Thanks.

[dpb]

***@hotmail.com wrote:
...

Post by n***@hotmail.com
This is what it looks like after he made the cut. The AC handler is
under the crown and he cut two 2x3 to make room for it. He also hung
the unit from the rafters so there is a bit more compression there.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/damagedtruss.jpg

Put a 2x6 on the underside of the rafters spanning the cut truss and
insert the missing leg from the current joint and fasten to the new piece.

This will transfer some load to the adjacent but give a support for the
cut truss to minimize any roof sag in the space between the two whole
trusses.

Assuming you can get the new member by the hanger, put the sister as
high up towards the roof peak as can and clear the upper corner of the duct.

Use plywood gussets w/ optional glue/adhesive in place of the destroyed
metal plates.

--

[dpb]

Post by dpb
...

Post by n***@hotmail.com
This is what it looks like after he made the cut. The AC handler is
under the crown and he cut two 2x3 to make room for it. He also hung
the unit from the rafters so there is a bit more compression there.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/damagedtruss.jpg

Put a 2x6 on the underside of the rafters spanning the cut truss and
insert the missing leg from the current joint and fasten to the new piece.

...
Also, a crossover between the two sides to those scabs and a sizable
plywood gusset there would aid rigidity up there at the crown...

--

[MiamiCuse]

Post by dpb

Post by dpb
...

Post by n***@hotmail.com
This is what it looks like after he made the cut. The AC handler is
under the crown and he cut two 2x3 to make room for it. He also hung
the unit from the rafters so there is a bit more compression there.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/damagedtruss.jpg

Put a 2x6 on the underside of the rafters spanning the cut truss and
insert the missing leg from the current joint and fasten to the new piece.

...
Also, a crossover between the two sides to those scabs and a sizable
plywood gusset there would aid rigidity up there at the crown...
--

Are plywood gussets always cut on site or can they be purchased off the
shelf?

I assume those galvanized tie plates from Home Depot with lots of nail holes
are not rigid enough as a gusset?

Thanks,

[dpb]

MiamiCuse wrote:
...

Post by MiamiCuse
Are plywood gussets always cut on site or can they be purchased off the
shelf?

I've never seen anything precut, no; but then again, I've never looked...

Post by MiamiCuse
I assume those galvanized tie plates from Home Depot with lots of nail holes
are not rigid enough as a gusset?

It depends on the application and which you're actually talking about.
For the bottom where apparently OP (or is that also you?) tore the
nailing plates up for some reason the similar ones should work ok, but I
figure it's as easy/simple to simply cut some plywood scraps for the job.

At the top to tie the two sides together to replace the broken chord I'd
go w/ as large a section as I could conveniently get into the space.

--

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Post by MiamiCuse
Are plywood gussets always cut on site or can they be purchased off the
shelf?

Just cut a piece of plywood to cover the joints. Use construction adhesive
and a bunch of long screws to hold it in place. It can be a simple
rectangle. Use good wood screws, not drywall screws.

[Red Green]

Post by Edwin Pawlowski

Post by MiamiCuse
Are plywood gussets always cut on site or can they be purchased off
the shelf?

Just cut a piece of plywood to cover the joints. Use construction
adhesive and a bunch of long screws to hold it in place. It can be a
simple rectangle. Use good wood screws, not drywall screws.

Yea, drywall screws are brittle since they are hardened. And those skinny
ass necks (that are getting skinnier) don't help. Pretty soon they'll be
nothing but a Phillips head pin

For applications where I want to make sure the screws don't snap I use
the ones that are touted as won't break or strip. Floors, & decking I
suppose they are geared for.

I was taken back by the fact that they are like 8.79 for a lb box. Then
you look at drywall screws and they are just about $6. Don't know of any
places around here that sell drywalls in bulk and you can just scoop a lb
for 2/3 to 1/2 the cost of Borg bastards.

[Don Young]

Post by n***@hotmail.com
OK, just an update on the situation.
I spoke to the tech and he said I will need to talk to the manager who
is "travelling" this week...I think it will be a back and forth
playing dumb - I may need to write them a letter.
However, the reality of the situation is, I need to fix this problem,
as I don't know if another hurricane may hit south Florida some time
in the next month while I sit on this, and that's why I tried to fix
this last week after I saw what he did. I have to implement a remedy
and worry about collection of that cost later.
Here are my issues.
(1) Since two truss members were cut, I have a total of 4 joints to
deal with, and a total of 8 joint gussets. In my repair, I had to
remove the existing piece of wood sticking out of it and I did it by
prying, hammering, pulling - and I was able to pull out three pieces
completely and the other five I bent, twisted, peeled back to let
loose of the lumber and they are still there. Given the circumstances
I think I have to pull them all out right? Hammering them back in
place will do no good.
(2) I will need to talk to the structures people in my company to get
some idea on the proper repair. Basically here is my truss
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/?action=view¤t=originaltruss.jpg
It spans 22 feet between two 8" exterior concrete block walls. The
rafters are 2x6 and extended 4 feet beyond the wall for the overhang
soffit ceiling. On each side of the crown are two 2x3 lumber at 45
degrees. The trusses are like that for the entire 70 feet of the
house on this wing, and they are spaced 24" apart. These two that are
cut are along are located 22' and 24' from one end, about 1/3 of the
way.
This is what it looks like after he made the cut. The AC handler is
under the crown and he cut two 2x3 to make room for it. He also hung
the unit from the rafters so there is a bit more compression there.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/damagedtruss.jpg
Thanks.

You have taken a very bad situation and made it much worse by your
well-intentioned repair efforts. I personally feel that your situation now
is such that anything short of a professionally engineered solution is not
worthwhile. Although there are probably lots of ways to make a satisfactory
repair, any future inspections, insurance claims, or sales would likely fail
without evidence of properly engineered evaluation and repair. The HVAC
contractor has done major damage to a critical structural part of your home
and fixing it is going to cost a lot of money. The only question is who is
going to pay for it and the courts may have to decide that.

Don Young

[Red Green]

Post by n***@hotmail.com
OK, just an update on the situation.
I spoke to the tech and he said I will need to talk to the manager who
is "travelling" this week...I think it will be a back and forth
playing dumb - I may need to write them a letter.
However, the reality of the situation is, I need to fix this problem,
as I don't know if another hurricane may hit south Florida some time
in the next month while I sit on this, and that's why I tried to fix
this last week after I saw what he did. I have to implement a remedy
and worry about collection of that cost later.
Here are my issues.
(1) Since two truss members were cut, I have a total of 4 joints to
deal with, and a total of 8 joint gussets. In my repair, I had to
remove the existing piece of wood sticking out of it and I did it by
prying, hammering, pulling - and I was able to pull out three pieces
completely and the other five I bent, twisted, peeled back to let
loose of the lumber and they are still there. Given the circumstances
I think I have to pull them all out right? Hammering them back in
place will do no good.
(2) I will need to talk to the structures people in my company to get
some idea on the proper repair. Basically here is my truss
http://s173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/?action=view&cu
rrent=originaltruss.jpg
It spans 22 feet between two 8" exterior concrete block walls. The
rafters are 2x6 and extended 4 feet beyond the wall for the overhang
soffit ceiling. On each side of the crown are two 2x3 lumber at 45
degrees. The trusses are like that for the entire 70 feet of the
house on this wing, and they are spaced 24" apart. These two that are
cut are along are located 22' and 24' from one end, about 1/3 of the
way.
This is what it looks like after he made the cut. The AC handler is
under the crown and he cut two 2x3 to make room for it. He also hung
the unit from the rafters so there is a bit more compression there.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/damagedtruss.jp
g
Thanks.
... Given the circumstances
I think I have to pull them all out right?

I doubt anyone will recommend pulling out what holds the trusses together.
I wouldn't, even if I thought I knew what I was doing. No one has the whole
picture from a NG posting.

Post by n***@hotmail.com
Hammering them back in
place will do no good.

I would guess not too much. Teeth back in same holes are much weaker. Teeth
in next to other vacant holes is not the same as teeth in virgin holes
properly spaced.

BTW, please don't try going to the Borg to get new connectors. Those are
not truss connectors in any way. Probably called joiners, mending plates or
something like that. The few truss connectors I've seen are stamped with
their rating like "MT20".

In some state they will not sell truss plates to non professionals simply
because they don't want hacks using them. They are designed to be put in
with presses. And they do not want to be sued I'm sure is another reason.

[l***@invalid.com]

On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:17:14 -0400, "MiamiCuse"

Post by MiamiCuse
I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new condenser
unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with new drain line and
drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I don't
want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they cut two of my
rafters out!!! I asked him and he said it had to be done or else it
wouldn't fit. So I had to figure out a way to fix what he did.

Did you get in writing that you did not approve any removal of
rafters? If you did, hire a lawyer. You can sue them and get back
every cent you paid them and more. If you dont have it in writing,
it's your word against theirs. You do have a legitimate legal case.
They damaged the structure of your home. You could now have roof sag,
roof leaking, ceilings cracking below, and many other problems.
GET A LAWYER !!!!

[Red Green]

Post by unknown
On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:17:14 -0400, "MiamiCuse"

Post by MiamiCuse
I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new
condenser unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with
new drain line and drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be
removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I
don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they
cut two of my rafters out!!! I asked him and he said it had to be
done or else it wouldn't fit. So I had to figure out a way to fix
what he did.

Did you get in writing that you did not approve any removal of
rafters? If you did, hire a lawyer. You can sue them and get back
every cent you paid them and more. If you dont have it in writing,
it's your word against theirs. You do have a legitimate legal case.
They damaged the structure of your home. You could now have roof sag,
roof leaking, ceilings cracking below, and many other problems.
GET A LAWYER !!!!
If you dont have it in writing,
it's your word against theirs.

As I previously posted, is a permit needed to alter/change a truss which is
a key structural component? If so, did they get one? What inspector signed
off on it.

That might have been MC's ace in the hole. Read the rest of the thread to
get the whole story.

[Red Green]

Post by MiamiCuse
I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new
condenser unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with
new drain line and drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be
removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I
specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I
don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they
cut two of my rafters out!!! I asked him and he said it had to be
done or else it wouldn't fit. So I had to figure out a way to fix
what he did.
This is what the two members used to look like, the piece that goes
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020494A.jpg
In order to fix this, I remove the left over pieces he cut from the
bottom and top connection. Took me a long time because there are
plates with hundreds of teeth biting into several pieces of framing at
the same time, there was not enough elbow room to work or get leverage
so it took me a long time. Once I got them out, I replaced them with
a piece going from the bottom to the top only at a steeper angle, then
I ran another piece from there to the high point. So basically
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020491.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020495.jpg
Will this work? I think it should but want to double check.
Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to
pull out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend"
backwards to let loose the piece of wood. Is there a tool to remove
these metal plates? I was up there almost 4 hours just prying the
plates out.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w67/143house/framing/P1020490.jpg
Thanks,
MC

Just wondering if there was any more activity since the last thread
posting.


Red...